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You're kidding

#1 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2021-April-21, 02:10

My apologies, this may turn into another progressive post.
It has been so long since I played "Standard" I want to go through this bidding before posting the complete hand.




Playing "Standard"
1nt appears to be my only bid, followed by a pass?
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

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#2 User is offline   DavidKok 

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Posted 2021-April-21, 02:40

Yes, those are the correct actions. And I think most other bidding systems will have an identical auction.
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#3 User is online   AL78 

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Posted 2021-April-21, 03:07

Correct. Prior to the last ice age Acol people would respond 2 but these days that hand is not quite good enough for a 2/1 response even if not playing 2/1 GF. After 2 you can't do anything sensible other than pass. If you had game potential partner would have bid 3, and if the hands look like a misfit, put the brakes on.
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#4 User is offline   LBengtsson 

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Posted 2021-April-21, 04:31

View PostAL78, on 2021-April-21, 03:07, said:

Correct. Prior to the last ice age Acol people would respond 2 but these days that hand is not quite good enough for a 2/1 response even if not playing 2/1 GF. After 2 you can't do anything sensible other than pass. If you had game potential partner would have bid 3, and if the hands look like a misfit, put the brakes on.


only adding. if the ops had not bid 2 the right bid was 'pass' also. now the ops have bid 2 and your K looks a dead honour, so pass is non-negotiable
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#5 User is offline   mw64ahw 

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Posted 2021-April-21, 07:53

Given West's bid (5+) South's 4s I would suspect that North is 6(32)2 or 6331.

With 7LT/8MLT 4 could be on if North is more than a minimum.

Worth 3 or even 4 if you don't want to mess around?
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#6 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2021-April-21, 09:52



I won't leave it there, I will post the full board next.
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

SLOW DOWN! This is not a speedball :)
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#7 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2021-April-21, 09:57



mw64ahw you would have been a hero , after the board partner said "You have to bid your hearts (2/1), we missed a slam"
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

SLOW DOWN! This is not a speedball :)
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#8 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2021-April-21, 10:21

View Postjillybean, on 2021-April-21, 09:57, said:



mw64ahw you would have been a hero , after the board partner said "You have to bid your hearts (2/1), we missed a slam"


N should double rather than bidding his anaemic already known to be 6 card spade suit for a third time, I bid 4 over that. I would have bid 3N or 4 over 3.
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#9 User is online   nige1 

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Posted 2021-April-21, 11:34

Jillybean 'after the board partner said "You have to bid your hearts (2/1), we missed a slam"'
+++++++++++++++++

IMO, over 2, North should probably double rather than bid 2
Over 3, Double by North is clearer.

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#10 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2021-April-21, 11:46

View Postnige1, on 2021-April-21, 11:34, said:

Jillybean 'after the board partner said "You have to bid your hearts (2/1), we missed a slam"'
+++++++++++++++++

IMO, over 2, North should probably double rather than bid 2
Over 3, Double by North is clearer.



Agree
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#11 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2021-April-21, 12:00



Now this seems like a cooperative auction. Playing 1nt forcing or not, North knows partner doesn't have spade support and double allows South to show her hand.
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

SLOW DOWN! This is not a speedball :)
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#12 User is offline   mw64ahw 

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Posted 2021-April-21, 12:16

View Postjillybean, on 2021-April-21, 09:57, said:



mw64ahw you would have been a hero , after the board partner said "You have to bid your hearts (2/1), we missed a slam"

Thanks - I enjoy your progressive posts, which get me thinking.

I only wish I could think quickly & clearly enough when playing
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#13 User is offline   mw64ahw 

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Posted 2021-April-21, 12:45

South should bid 3 over the X with an MLT of 8. This will give North the opportunity to Q bid with his Strong <5.5 MLT hand.

The bidding would then go
3-4 ( control & honour)
4 (denies control)-4NT (3KCs w. A & control)
6 (1KC w. Q)
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#14 User is offline   mycroft 

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Posted 2021-April-21, 13:22

Adding to the choir: "At the 2 level, undiscussed doubles are takeout. At the 3 level, undiscussed doubles are 'Do Something Intelligent'." is a good meta-agreement to have.

Therefore, double of 3 is standout. I've showed my 6 spades, I have support for both reds (as much as not bidding them at the 2 level would show), partner will have the right answer (which might be pass).
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#15 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2021-April-21, 14:59

View PostAL78, on 2021-April-21, 03:07, said:

Prior to the last ice age Acol people would respond 2


Even then?
I remember "a good 8-9" as early Acol, this is 8 but not that good even in California (to paraphrase Chico Marx).
By 1973 Terence Reese had already raised the bar to 10-12.
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#16 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2021-April-21, 15:22

View Postjillybean, on 2021-April-21, 12:00, said:



Now this seems like a cooperative auction. Playing 1nt forcing or not, North knows partner doesn't have spade support and double allows South to show her hand.

After northís double of 2C, which isnít exactly clear when holding 6 spades, south bid just 2H. What do you think he ought to bid with, say, xx Qxxx xxxx KJx?

Do you want, as north, to be in game opposite that?

Now, one canít go around catering to partner having the worst possible hands, but there is NOTHING about the auction that tells opener that south has 5 good hearts.

So, why doesnít north invite game? After all, he has game invitational values. Blasting 4H is bad bridge that works on this hand. That doesnít make it the correct call.

As it is, south has a close decision over 2C x P. His clubs are bad for offence but his hearts are a bonus. Heís close to 3H (easily raised to game) and 2H.

Westís subsequent 3C call complicates matters, since now 3H isnít necessarily quite as strong as it would be were it a simple raise, without the 3C call, but south was already close to inviting game anyway, so should add on the fourth heart.
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#17 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2021-April-21, 15:42

View Postmikeh, on 2021-April-21, 15:22, said:

After northís double of 2C, which isnít exactly clear when holding 6 spades, south bid just 2H. What do you think he ought to bid with, say, xx Qxxx xxxx KJx?

Do you want, as north, to be in game opposite that?

Now, one canít go around catering to partner having the worst possible hands, but there is NOTHING about the auction that tells opener that south has 5 good hearts.

So, why doesnít north invite game? After all, he has game invitational values. Blasting 4H is bad bridge that works on this hand. That doesnít make it the correct call.

As it is, south has a close decision over 2C x P. His clubs are bad for offence but his hearts are a bonus. Heís close to 3H (easily raised to game) and 2H.

Westís subsequent 3C call complicates matters, since now 3H isnít necessarily quite as strong as it would be were it a simple raise, without the 3C call, but south was already close to inviting game anyway, so should add on the fourth heart.


I agree 100%. That was a carless, poorly thought out post.
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

SLOW DOWN! This is not a speedball :)
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#18 User is offline   Tramticket 

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Posted 2021-April-21, 15:59

View Postnige1, on 2021-April-21, 11:34, said:

IMO, over 2, North should probably double rather than bid 2
Over 3, Double by North is clearer.


Agree.

But should South pass 3C doubled for penalties? Or bid 4H? or 3NT?
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#19 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2021-April-21, 16:35

View PostTramticket, on 2021-April-21, 15:59, said:

Agree.

But should South pass 3C doubled for penalties? Or bid 4H? or 3NT?


Has basically no losing option, 3N and 4 are solid, 3x is 1100 if defended perfectly. You don't want to be in 6.
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#20 User is offline   LBengtsson 

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Posted 2021-April-21, 21:12

why should south bid s after 2??? this is garbage and north could have AKJxxx Ax Qxx Jx. when even 2 or 2 could be down. there are numerous other hands where south bidding will be wrong. just because one hand fits the criteria does not make it the right bid. agree that north should X instead of 2 on second round with 6331 with jillybean north hand, then get to 4 easy.

as for north saying south should bid after 2, north is wrong not south. this is worse scene resulting. there are plenty of less high point hands where north can bid 2 after ops 2. the suit is highest one so ops either have to let it play or compete to three level.
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