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missed a good 4H contract earlier on BBO had a bit of a disagreement about it but genuinely not sure and looking for advice.


South thought that he had bid his hand with 1NT and that X would be better than 3D on North's second turn

North thought that 1NT was an underbid and that S should also have made some kind of move over 3D.


Thanks,

Eagles

Plenty to go aroumd here. The first mistake was North's 1♦. X is much better. Given the 1♦ bid South's 1N is very heavy. Given 1D-1N, I can't really fault 3♦, since S is unlikely to hold [h]. Souths final pass is execrable, a massive undervaluation. If you are going to make the bloated 1N call, you must be willing to bid some game when partner shows signs of life.

Why bid 1N rather than 1♥ ?

Not much blame to go around. 1♦ is clearly correct: double is being a result merchant. The hand isn't good enough to double and bid diamonds, and we do have a good 6 card suit. We intend, if the bidding is low enough, to double at our next turn.

1N is not a weakness bid opposite an overcall, and the stiff diamond, altho an honour, calls for conservatism. If 1♥ would have been a one round force, then there is some merit to the call, altho in NA at least the call is usually played as 5+ hearts. If it is NF, as is common, then it is dangerous since partner may pass us with a poor hand and, say, Qx in hearts.

Over 3♣, I suspect that most BBF'ers play double as takeout, but once partner bids 1N, I think double should be more optional than anything else, and the void argues against suggesting we defend at all. 3♦ seems middle of the road to me...it shows a good long suit and extra values. I don't think double is horrible, but I do think it is a bad idea. As S it wouldn't occur to me to pull, since partner is typically 3=3=6=1, with an opening hand.

S could now try 3♥ over 3♦, I suppose, en route to 3N, provided that partner understands that this is natural with extras. It is a bit of any overbid, since on some hands on which 3N makes, partner would have bid it himself....but we do have 2 Aces, and that diamond J is growing up.

I'd be very pleased with our efforts if any regular partner and I reached 4♥ here.

Of course, this thread will be filled with people for whom reaching 4♥ is a snap. I'm always amazed at how accurate some players are when they see both hands

Cyberyeti, on 2014-April-20, 16:09, said:

1) If 1H is reserved to show 5+, then overcaller requires less in support in order to raise.
2) As advancer has Jxxxx in the oppo suit, it is rather unlikely that overcaller will have enough in that suit to suggest 1N in the event that he lacks Heart support, as 1H by advancer would not suggest a Club holding.
3) Except when opener is so unkind as to leap in with 3C, there is room to investigate a 4-4 Heart fit over 1N if game is in the frame.

My take is that the 3D bid shows a good hand, and having bid 1N first time round, and with the J of Diamonds working hard, South may be just about good enough to bid 3H over 3D.

I certainly don't like an initial double by North over 1C, but a double of 3C may be reasonable. You may end up defending 3CX rather than finding 4H, but that may score about the same and certainly a sight better than 3D.

Some of the blame goes to a good pressure bid of 3C by oppo I think.

mikeh, on 2014-April-20, 16:27, said:

I never said I get to 4♥...given the start of the auction, if you're sticking me with it, 3N is more likely. But I'm 100% never stopping in 3D.

Blame IS resulting, the way I view it. Blame (or credit if the result were different) goes to South who did not bid 3H after seeing and participating in the previous part of the auction.

I believe, as Mikeh mentioned, that 3H at that point is correct. And since it would have worked well this time, South gets the blame for not doing it. I would get the blame if I bid 3H and it worked badly.

I suspect the difference in approach for me would be that we don't overcall the non preemptive 1♦ over 1♣ with filth, and respond to it pretty much as if we'd opened it (and overcall on hands strong enough that most people would have to double and bid diamonds), so this is an easy 1♥ for us.

I agree with MikeH as usual. Otoh, believe me or not, I do too play 1♥ NF and that is what I would bid. I just don't play it % 100 5+

But anyway, what is DBL by N over 3♣ for others? I am not implying that N should double, nor saying he should not, just curious.

EDIT: Never mind my 2nd line, I now see it has been already mentioned.

eagles123, on 2014-April-20, 15:12, said:

1D by Nth is pretty clear. 1NT by Sth is heavy but not unreasonable.
I would find a X by Nth at my second turn and I suspect Sth would leave this in.

like many before me I was very unhappy with the final pass of 3d
and felt a 3h bid was called for. I have no major problems with
1n or 3d but really hated that final pass over 3d. Aces and a great
dia J when p has to have half way decent diamonds for the 3d bid.

3H

leaves us 3 possible places to play game in depending on what
p has. 3n 4h 5d I am not overly crazy about forcing us to play 3n
so I am more than willing to offer up an alternative for p. This
exploration for more carries very little risk and could reap huge
rewards (it does not get much better than that in this game ))))

Without resulting,. I would open South 1♣, which makes everything else immaterial. Aggressive opening of hands like these pays dividends because of auctions like this. If you open, you have no rebid problems. If you do not open, you have strained sequences later.

Seems like south skipping the normal bid of 1♥ caused some problem. It's hard to see north bidding 3♥ instead of 3♦ because of the possible wastage in clubs.

I am surprised that South didn't bid 6♥ over 3♦ (oh, wait - wrong thread). Interestingly, it actually has play.

I agree with Mike on everything he said. I could not have said it better myself. Literally, I mean there is no way I could have said it better (or nearly as well, for that matter).I even gave Mike one of my rare upvotes (like he needs my upvote).

thanks everyone for responses all very helpful.

whereagles, on 2014-April-21, 10:41, said:

I don't think anyone suggested 1H by South as "normal". It is a possible agreement, but hardly normal.

I don't think anyone suggesting North bid 3H instead of 3D after the OP start, either. It is South whom we can see bidding 3H over North's 3D.

How come 1♥ is not normal? What is normal then? A 1/1 advance promising 5 cards??

I can understand a 2/1+ advance requiring 5 cards, but if you extend that to 1/1, you'll skip some 4-4 fits.

whereagles, on 2014-April-21, 12:02, said:

I made an attempt at answering that earlier in the thread. Feel free to disagree with it, as you please, but ignoring it and then re-posing the question is not productive. For me, a 1/1 only promises 4, but I will look for an alternative. And with a hand that is balanced, in range, with the opponent's suit well guarded, I will generally prefer the 1N alternative.

whereagles, on 2014-April-21, 12:02, said:

You will also miss some 1N contracts when you don't happen to have a 4-4 fit if you choose to bid 1M and partner lacks the guard in the opponent's suit that you hold but have not shown.
And barring further competitive bidding you should still find your 4-4 fit if partner is strong enough to look for it.

the 4-4 fit is usually found at the 1 level.

Regardless of that, north should double 3 clubs.

Some interesting stuff in this thread. First of all I am with Ken in liking a 1♣ opening from South. Then I am with Mike and the OP on overcalling 1♦. I cannot understand why the 1NT advance is being described as heavy - the normal range for a 1NT advance of a one level overcall is 9-12 and as a passed hand it effectively shows a maximum pass. Nonetheless I also find a 1♥ reponse "normal" here, most likely because I did not find out that many players play this as 5+ for quite a long time after learning the game. I do accept that normal for one is certainly not normal for another, especially in competitive bidding, and while advancing 1♥ is good here there are plenty of other hands where it will work out badly. Finally, 3♦ seems reasonable to me over 3♣. This shows the values of the hand as a weaker hand would have started with 2♦ and does not risk a potentially disastrous pass.

In short, I can find no fault with North's actions. For dividing the blame between South and the system we probably need to know more about the agreements in play. All of the calls made were reasonable though.