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IMPs. Two very strong players (at least) faced the same auction here and both made the same choice. Would you Pass, Double or Bid 4S?
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#1
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Posted 2014-September-20, 14:27
IMPs. Two very strong players (at least) faced the same auction here and both made the same choice. Would you Pass, Double or Bid 4S?
I prefer to give the lawmakers credit for stating things for a reason - barmar
#2
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Posted 2014-September-20, 15:41
4♠. IANAE.
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Posted 2014-September-20, 15:50
Seems like one of those simple 4♠ two-way shots.
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Posted 2014-September-20, 15:52
I would just bid 4♠. When will I bid 4♠ if not at these colors and 4 card fit and they seem to have at least 620 in their pocket. This also kills the available 4m cues by opener. I am not scared that this will help them to spot the spade shortness since it has already been spotted. Dbl just means we have a spade honor, not necessarily length and gives opponents extra bidding space. Coming from pass I could make a lead directing bid, but I don't think my clubs are qualified to make such a bid.
Since this hand made its way to forums, we will learn soon why 4♠ was wrong.
Since this hand made its way to forums, we will learn soon why 4♠ was wrong.
"Genius has its own limitations, however stupidity has no such boundaries!"
"It's only when a mosquito lands on your testicles that you realize there is always a way to solve problems without using violence!"
"Well to be perfectly honest, in my humble opinion, of course without offending anyone who thinks differently from my point of view, but also by looking into this matter in a different perspective and without being condemning of one's view's and by trying to make it objectified, and by considering each and every one's valid opinion, I honestly believe that I completely forgot what I was going to say."
"It's only when a mosquito lands on your testicles that you realize there is always a way to solve problems without using violence!"
"Well to be perfectly honest, in my humble opinion, of course without offending anyone who thinks differently from my point of view, but also by looking into this matter in a different perspective and without being condemning of one's view's and by trying to make it objectified, and by considering each and every one's valid opinion, I honestly believe that I completely forgot what I was going to say."
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Posted 2014-September-20, 15:58
I pass
Just because they splintered doesn't mean they are cold for game, and just because we have (probably) a 9 card fit doesn't mean we have a good save. I have a hand that may have defence and, if it doesn't, it rates not to have much offence either. If I bid 4♠, I create a forcing pass for them, and if LHO doubles and rho leaves it in, I am far from sure I would be happy. But, I am a card-carrying chicken.
Just because they splintered doesn't mean they are cold for game, and just because we have (probably) a 9 card fit doesn't mean we have a good save. I have a hand that may have defence and, if it doesn't, it rates not to have much offence either. If I bid 4♠, I create a forcing pass for them, and if LHO doubles and rho leaves it in, I am far from sure I would be happy. But, I am a card-carrying chicken.
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Posted 2014-September-20, 16:08
mikeh, on 2014-September-20, 15:58, said:
I pass
Just because they splintered doesn't mean they are cold for game, and just because we have (probably) a 9 card fit doesn't mean we have a good save. I have a hand that may have defence and, if it doesn't, it rates not to have much offence either. If I bid 4♠, I create a forcing pass for them, and if LHO doubles and rho leaves it in, I am far from sure I would be happy. But, I am a card-carrying chicken.
Just because they splintered doesn't mean they are cold for game, and just because we have (probably) a 9 card fit doesn't mean we have a good save. I have a hand that may have defence and, if it doesn't, it rates not to have much offence either. If I bid 4♠, I create a forcing pass for them, and if LHO doubles and rho leaves it in, I am far from sure I would be happy. But, I am a card-carrying chicken.
But Mike...we do not make bids only when we are %100 sure, do we? Yes splinter does not mean they will make game % 100. Yes a save with 18 trumps (at least 18) white vs red may not work %100 of the time. And even if that is the case, they do not know it.
About forcing pass; you are experienced enough how little the help comes from forcing passes and how it can be confusing even for best of best pairs, compared to their ability to cue at 4 level, whether that would be for control cueing or for expressing a slam interest or whatever those bids mean for them. I think you are resulting before we even know the results, due to this hand being posted
"Genius has its own limitations, however stupidity has no such boundaries!"
"It's only when a mosquito lands on your testicles that you realize there is always a way to solve problems without using violence!"
"Well to be perfectly honest, in my humble opinion, of course without offending anyone who thinks differently from my point of view, but also by looking into this matter in a different perspective and without being condemning of one's view's and by trying to make it objectified, and by considering each and every one's valid opinion, I honestly believe that I completely forgot what I was going to say."
"It's only when a mosquito lands on your testicles that you realize there is always a way to solve problems without using violence!"
"Well to be perfectly honest, in my humble opinion, of course without offending anyone who thinks differently from my point of view, but also by looking into this matter in a different perspective and without being condemning of one's view's and by trying to make it objectified, and by considering each and every one's valid opinion, I honestly believe that I completely forgot what I was going to say."
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Posted 2014-September-20, 16:28
mikeh, on 2014-September-20, 15:58, said:
I pass
Just because they splintered doesn't mean they are cold for game, and just because we have (probably) a 9 card fit doesn't mean we have a good save. I have a hand that may have defence and, if it doesn't, it rates not to have much offence either. If I bid 4♠, I create a forcing pass for them, and if LHO doubles and rho leaves it in, I am far from sure I would be happy. But, I am a card-carrying chicken.
Just because they splintered doesn't mean they are cold for game, and just because we have (probably) a 9 card fit doesn't mean we have a good save. I have a hand that may have defence and, if it doesn't, it rates not to have much offence either. If I bid 4♠, I create a forcing pass for them, and if LHO doubles and rho leaves it in, I am far from sure I would be happy. But, I am a card-carrying chicken.
I think the above is the best post on this thread, but I am biased in that I know the hand. I think Ax is a particularly bad trump holding for saving for two reasons. If partner leads a club from a doubleton we may beat this if the ace of clubs is in dummy. Also partner may have Qx in trumps, and declarer may get the suit wrong. Also there is a chance of going for more than 500, which would not be great anyway at IMPs. On the actual hand, you go for 800 and declarer should make 4H, but two strong players went off. Better, in my view, to take a chance on going plus, but maybe I am being a result merchant.
I prefer to give the lawmakers credit for stating things for a reason - barmar
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Posted 2014-September-20, 16:30
I might be being a bit thick, but surely double shows interest in sacrificing. We can hardly be asking for the lead.
Pretty close between double and 4♠ - pass seems pretty unilateral.
Pretty close between double and 4♠ - pass seems pretty unilateral.
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Posted 2014-September-20, 16:48
lamford, on 2014-September-20, 16:28, said:
....., but maybe I am being a result merchant.
PhilKing, on 2014-September-20, 16:30, said:
I might be being a bit thick, but surely double shows interest in sacrificing. We can hardly be asking for the lead.Pretty close between double and 4♠ - pass seems pretty unilateral.
It's true that after splinter we can hardly be asking for the lead.
"Genius has its own limitations, however stupidity has no such boundaries!"
"It's only when a mosquito lands on your testicles that you realize there is always a way to solve problems without using violence!"
"Well to be perfectly honest, in my humble opinion, of course without offending anyone who thinks differently from my point of view, but also by looking into this matter in a different perspective and without being condemning of one's view's and by trying to make it objectified, and by considering each and every one's valid opinion, I honestly believe that I completely forgot what I was going to say."
"It's only when a mosquito lands on your testicles that you realize there is always a way to solve problems without using violence!"
"Well to be perfectly honest, in my humble opinion, of course without offending anyone who thinks differently from my point of view, but also by looking into this matter in a different perspective and without being condemning of one's view's and by trying to make it objectified, and by considering each and every one's valid opinion, I honestly believe that I completely forgot what I was going to say."
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Posted 2014-September-20, 17:20
lamford, on 2014-September-20, 14:27, said:
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Posted 2014-September-20, 17:58
MrAce, on 2014-September-20, 16:08, said:
But Mike...we do not make bids only when we are %100 sure, do we? Yes splinter does not mean they will make game % 100. Yes a save with 18 trumps (at least 18) white vs red may not work %100 of the time. And even if that is the case, they do not know it.
About forcing pass; you are experienced enough how little the help comes from forcing passes and how it can be confusing even for best of best pairs, compared to their ability to cue at 4 level, whether that would be for control cueing or for expressing a slam interest or whatever those bids mean for them. I think you are resulting before we even know the results, due to this hand being posted
About forcing pass; you are experienced enough how little the help comes from forcing passes and how it can be confusing even for best of best pairs, compared to their ability to cue at 4 level, whether that would be for control cueing or for expressing a slam interest or whatever those bids mean for them. I think you are resulting before we even know the results, due to this hand being posted
I don't think you've played with or against me: I assure you: my pass wouldn't surprise any expert who knew me well. I agree with your comment about not needing to be 100% sure before making a call, but that has nothing to do with it. I think it is a close decision. I think the odds favour pass, but I don't think it is 100% either way, or even remotely 100%
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Posted 2014-September-20, 22:37
Doesn't a lot here depend on how aggressive you partner is at bidding 1S? It's not very exclusive, but he's looking at the colours as well.
#13
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Posted 2014-September-20, 23:39
I double, showing a hand that would have raised spades but doesn't have enough to bid 4♠. That seems a pretty good description of my hand.
I don't understand why anyone would play this double as lead-directing. All doubles of the form
(bid) overcall (cue) double
should show a hand that wanted to raise, but in this case it's particularly obvious.
I don't understand why anyone would play this double as lead-directing. All doubles of the form
(bid) overcall (cue) double
should show a hand that wanted to raise, but in this case it's particularly obvious.
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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Posted 2014-September-21, 00:08
gnasher, on 2014-September-20, 23:39, said:
I double, showing a hand that would have raised spades but doesn't have enough to bid 4♠. That seems a pretty good description of my hand.
I don't understand why anyone would play this double as lead-directing. All doubles of the form
(bid) overcall (cue) double
should show a hand that wanted to raise, but in this case it's particularly obvious.
I don't understand why anyone would play this double as lead-directing. All doubles of the form
(bid) overcall (cue) double
should show a hand that wanted to raise, but in this case it's particularly obvious.
Well maybe YOU would not play this double as lead directing, but the fact is that a lot of people, including many experts, do play it as showing H(x)(x), Hx at the 2 level.
I would have bid 4S. After reading Mike's post I think that is very wrong, especially if you overcall light as i do.
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Posted 2014-September-21, 01:44
the hog, on 2014-September-21, 00:08, said:
Well maybe YOU would not play this double as lead directing, but the fact is that a lot of people, including many experts, do play it as showing H(x)(x), Hx at the 2 level.
I would have bid 4S. After reading Mike's post I think that is very wrong, especially if you overcall light as i do.
I would have bid 4S. After reading Mike's post I think that is very wrong, especially if you overcall light as i do.
Ron, i made the same mistake you do in my first reply and woke up after reading Phil. I think Andy and Phil got it right. After splinter in pd's suit, it is not optimum use of DBL to show lead. I kinda liked the idea that it shows interest in bidding but not sure. However with this hand i would still bid 4♠ for different reasons. I would agree with you if 3♠ was not splinter but a cue (in example if pd overcalled weak 2♠)
"Genius has its own limitations, however stupidity has no such boundaries!"
"It's only when a mosquito lands on your testicles that you realize there is always a way to solve problems without using violence!"
"Well to be perfectly honest, in my humble opinion, of course without offending anyone who thinks differently from my point of view, but also by looking into this matter in a different perspective and without being condemning of one's view's and by trying to make it objectified, and by considering each and every one's valid opinion, I honestly believe that I completely forgot what I was going to say."
"It's only when a mosquito lands on your testicles that you realize there is always a way to solve problems without using violence!"
"Well to be perfectly honest, in my humble opinion, of course without offending anyone who thinks differently from my point of view, but also by looking into this matter in a different perspective and without being condemning of one's view's and by trying to make it objectified, and by considering each and every one's valid opinion, I honestly believe that I completely forgot what I was going to say."
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Posted 2014-September-21, 04:50
MrAce, on 2014-September-21, 01:44, said:
Ron, i made the same mistake you do in my first reply and woke up after reading Phil. I think Andy and Phil got it right. After splinter in pd's suit, it is not optimum use of DBL to show lead. I kinda liked the idea that it shows interest in bidding but not sure. However with this hand i would still bid 4♠ for different reasons. I would agree with you if 3♠ was not splinter but a cue (in example if pd overcalled weak 2♠)
"After splinter in pd's suit, it is not optimum use of DBL to show lead."
This does make sense! You see, I Iearnt something today, Thanks.
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Posted 2014-September-21, 10:21
Double is perfect if interpreted correctly. This hand is exactly a mixed raise- no more and no less. Double can't be lead directing when responder shows shortness, but in my partnerships double of our cuebid suit is 'don't lead this'.
Whether or not the negative message exists when the positive one doesn't is unclear. But since a spade lead isn't practical this treatment should not apply.
Whether or not the negative message exists when the positive one doesn't is unclear. But since a spade lead isn't practical this treatment should not apply.
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Posted 2014-September-21, 11:33
Phil, on 2014-September-21, 10:21, said:
Double is perfect if interpreted correctly. This hand is exactly a mixed raise- no more and no less.
Well, it might be a mixed raise if RHO hadn't bid but that's hardly the issue is it. Dbl gives LHO loads of options to help the partnership work out whther to bid 5 over 4. Whenever sacrificing is right you give up equity by doubling and not bidding 4S immediately. That's not to say double is with the odds. But it does put more pressure on the opps, which is how I like to play my bridge.
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Posted 2014-September-21, 11:41
PhilKing, on 2014-September-20, 16:30, said:
I might be being a bit thick, but surely double shows interest in sacrificing. We can hardly be asking for the lead. Pretty close between double and 4♠ - pass seems pretty unilateral.
Double
What should your double mean here? With expert endorsement, PhiKing suggests good ♠ support, consulting partner about a possible 4♠ contract. I hadn't thought of that but wonder if you should expect that meaning, without prior agreement, even if you are lucky enough to be playing with an expert. There seem to be other useful candidate meanings:
- Suggesting a particular lead, e.g. ♠ x x ♥ x x ♦ A K x x x ♣ x x x x
- Suggesting partner might consider doubling 4♥ e .g. ♠ x x ♥ A x x ♦ K x x x ♣ Q J x x
- Asking for a ♠ underlead, e.g. ♠ K x ♥ K J x x ♦ x x x ♣ x x x x
- Expressing doubt with meagre ♠ support e.g. ♠ Q x x ♥ x x ♦ K J x x ♣ A x x x
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Posted 2014-September-21, 11:56
I know of two common agreements when it comes to doubles of splinters:
1. Asks for a lead of the suit BELOW the singleton.
2. Shows length in the splinter suit, suggests a sac.
If you're playing method 2, by meta-agreement principles, dbl of 3♠ should show length there and suggest a save in 4♠. Without any agreement taking the guess of bidding 4 might not be optimal, but would certainly avoid a mixup.
1. Asks for a lead of the suit BELOW the singleton.
2. Shows length in the splinter suit, suggests a sac.
If you're playing method 2, by meta-agreement principles, dbl of 3♠ should show length there and suggest a save in 4♠. Without any agreement taking the guess of bidding 4 might not be optimal, but would certainly avoid a mixup.
IMPs. Two very strong players (at least) faced the same auction here and both made the same choice. Would you Pass, Double or Bid 4S?