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Any Action?

#1 User is offline   lamford 

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Posted 2016-October-24, 08:53


IMPs

Your style is to open all 11-counts with a 5-card suit. a 1NT rebid would be any 17+; your 2C showed 11-16 and could have been a three-card suit if 2-5-3-3. Partner could have used fourth suit then 3H or 4H with a slam-try, so he is limited. Do you move, and if so how?
I prefer to give the lawmakers credit for stating things for a reason - barmar
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#2 User is offline   MrAce 

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Posted 2016-October-24, 08:58

Pass
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#3 User is offline   Kaitlyn S 

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Posted 2016-October-24, 09:17

View PostMrAce, on 2016-October-24, 08:58, said:

Pass
Agree. Partner had slam tries available, and you have only five hearts and no help to set up spades.
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#4 User is offline   rmnka447 

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Posted 2016-October-24, 12:56

Pass, also.

Partner has other bids than 4 ♥ available to keep the conversation open and explore for a potential slam. Your hand didn't get any better when partner bid ♠. You also know partner may have some wasted values in ♠.
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#5 User is offline   neilkaz 

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Posted 2016-October-24, 13:10

View Postrmnka447, on 2016-October-24, 12:56, said:

Pass, also.

Partner has other bids than 4 ♥ available to keep the conversation open and explore for a potential slam. Your hand didn't get any better when partner bid ♠. You also know partner may have some wasted values in ♠.

Pass here for the same reasons.
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#6 User is offline   billw55 

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Posted 2016-October-24, 15:00

Partner made two calls and both were discouraging. Occasionally even 4♥ will be down. Pass.
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#7 User is offline   lamford 

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Posted 2016-October-24, 15:32

I am convinced by all your arguments, although slam was cold on this occasion, which indicates partner should have gone more slowly. I would be worried that partner could easily be Axxx Qxx Kx Axxx, which he was, when Six Clubs and Six Hearts will be good. If partner is 13-14 with three hearts (as you could be an 11-count 2-5-3-3 and he could invite in hearts as well), then slam is around 44%, with game going off 2% of the time, and ten tricks being the limit a further 11% of the time.

[If partner has a 14-count, then you would be 55% for slam.]
I prefer to give the lawmakers credit for stating things for a reason - barmar
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#8 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2016-October-24, 15:36


Lamford "IMPs. Your style is to open all 11-counts with a 5-card suit. a 1NT rebid would be any 17+; your 2C showed 11-16 and could have been a three-card suits if 2-5-3-3. Partner could have used fourth suit then 3H or 4H with a slam-try, so he is limited. Do you move, and if so how?"

Agree with others. I rank
1. Pass = NAT. No other sensible call. Too high to explore effectively...
2. 5♥ = S/T. But if partner has extra values they may be wasted unless outside ♠s.
3. 5♣ = CUE. But IMO it should be a 1st round control. Also it tells opponents to lead a ♦.

Guthrie.tech
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#9 User is offline   wank 

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Posted 2016-October-25, 01:45

no spade wastage (the ace isn't wasted). no way to identify that.
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#10 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2016-October-25, 02:58

Slam can easily be on if partner has bad spades, but there is no 5 level safety, I think you have to pass.
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#11 User is offline   bgm 

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Posted 2016-October-25, 03:24

When you want to reach these kind of thin slam, the balanced one must need to temporize the bidding, delay the support, and show a BAL FG hand first (e.g. 1♥ - 2♣), so that he has a chance to listen to partner shape, in case there is a perfect fit. This is the balanced hand principle. Of course you have a tougher time when you have unbalanced vs unbalanced.

When the balanced hand refuse to probe for slam, say want to conceal the hand as much as possible, then his shapely partner is never safe to bid above the game level on his own, as mentioned by other posters.
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#12 User is offline   billw55 

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Posted 2016-October-25, 06:27

View Postlamford, on 2016-October-24, 15:32, said:

If partner is 13-14 with three hearts (as you could be an 11-count 2-5-3-3 and he could invite in hearts as well), then slam is around 44%, with game going off 2% of the time, and ten tricks being the limit a further 11% of the time.

So 87% making 5+ tricks. Better than I thought. Maybe this bidding was not so discouraging as I thought.

View Postwank, on 2016-October-25, 01:45, said:

no spade wastage (the ace isn't wasted). no way to identify that.

Perhaps there should be. This is a not a rare dilemma with shortage. Has anyone invented a sort of wastage asking bid?
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#13 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2016-October-25, 06:34

You might consider looking up some of Fred's old posts on the subject Paul. His suggestion was to play a 2♠ response as your GF raise and 2NT to be natural and game forcing. That would allow your real hand to bid 2NT followed by 3♥, meaning that the sequence genuinely emphasises the spades. In this way you can give partner a better indication of your hand. There are of course other solutions around too but perhaps the real point is to note that this DGR sequence is probably best defined to be a hand with support and a good side suit and to find an alternative auction for a balanced hand with 3 card support.
(-: Zel :-)
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#14 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2016-October-25, 08:11

View Postlamford, on 2016-October-24, 08:53, said:

Your style is to open all 11-counts with a 5-card suit. a 1NT rebid would be any 17+; your 2C showed 11-16 and could have been a three-card suit if 2-5-3-3. Partner could have used fourth suit then 3H or 4H with a slam-try, so he is limited. Do you move, and if so how?

Apparently your style involves weak nt combined with not opening a weak nt with a 5cM. The problem presented in the OP seems to be one of several problems created when Opener cannot show a balanced hand by rebidding 1nt (like playing in 1nt).

View PostZelandakh, on 2016-October-25, 06:34, said:

You might consider looking up some of Fred's old posts on the subject Paul. His suggestion was to play a 2♠ response as your GF raise and 2NT to be natural and game forcing.............


Zel's recommendations are probably a necessary tweak to your response structure to fix the given situation. But, the style has other features which IMO can't be fixed.
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
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#15 User is offline   dboxley 

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Posted 2016-October-25, 10:34

View Postlamford, on 2016-October-24, 08:53, said:


IMPs

Your style is to open all 11-counts with a 5-card suit. a 1NT rebid would be any 17+; your 2C showed 11-16 and could have been a three-card suit if 2-5-3-3. Partner could have used fourth suit then 3H or 4H with a slam-try, so he is limited. Do you move, and if so how?


Your comments convinced me to pass which I would always do with a regular partner.
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#16 User is offline   jogs 

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Posted 2016-October-25, 12:49

View Postlamford, on 2016-October-24, 15:32, said:

I am convinced by all your arguments, although slam was cold on this occasion, which indicates partner should have gone more slowly. I would be worried that partner could easily be Axxx Qxx Kx Axxx, which he was, when Six Clubs and Six Hearts will be good. If partner is 13-14 with three hearts (as you could be an 11-count 2-5-3-3 and he could invite in hearts as well), then slam is around 44%, with game going off 2% of the time, and ten tricks being the limit a further 11% of the time.

[If partner has a 14-count, then you would be 55% for slam.]

That hand has 5 controls. Don't jump to 4♥ with 5 controls.
Points are secondary. Controls are more critical to slams.
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#17 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2016-October-25, 20:19

View Postdboxley, on 2016-October-25, 10:34, said:

Your comments convinced me to pass which I would always do with a regular partner.

Yes. It would seem that even with the given structure, a regular partner would have everything worthwhile concentrated in Spades and Hearts with no 1st or 2nd round control in the minors.
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
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#18 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2016-October-25, 20:35

View Postbgm, on 2016-October-25, 03:24, said:

When you want to reach these kind of thin slam, the balanced one must need to temporize the bidding, delay the support, and show a BAL FG hand first (e.g. 1♥ - 2♣), so that he has a chance to listen to partner shape, in case there is a perfect fit. This is the balanced hand principle. Of course you have a tougher time when you have unbalanced vs unbalanced.

When the balanced hand refuse to probe for slam, say want to conceal the hand as much as possible, then his shapely partner is never safe to bid above the game level on his own, as mentioned by other posters.


Are you suggesting that a 2♣ response show natural vlubs or a balanced GF? It seems to me that this would require a lot of artificial followups unless you decided that the bid was GF even it it was just natural clubs. But perhaps I am overstating the difficulties?

View PostZelandakh, on 2016-October-25, 06:34, said:

You might consider looking up some of Fred's old posts on the subject Paul. His suggestion was to play a 2♠ response as your GF raise and 2NT to be natural and game forcing. That would allow your real hand to bid 2NT followed by 3♥, meaning that the sequence genuinely emphasises the spades. In this way you can give partner a better indication of your hand. There are of course other solutions around too but perhaps the real point is to note that this DGR sequence is probably best defined to be a hand with support and a good side suit and to find an alternative auction for a balanced hand with 3 card support.


I am not sure, but I am guessing that Lamford and his partner were using 2♠ as a GF raise and 2NT as a spade jump shift. Is there a way to show these three hand-types, or is it best to just ignore the ♠ JS since it never comes up?
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#19 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2016-October-26, 02:21

View PostVampyr, on 2016-October-25, 20:35, said:

I am not sure, but I am guessing that Lamford and his partner were using 2♠ as a GF raise and 2NT as a spade jump shift. Is there a way to show these three hand-types, or is it best to just ignore the ♠ JS since it never comes up?

I would not like to speak for Fred but I believe he does not use a GF spade response after a 1♥ opening but something along the lines of:

1♠ = nat, F1
1NT = semi-forcing
2m = nat, GF
2♥ = constructive
2♠ = GF raise with 4+ hearts
2NT = 12+-15
3♣ = weak raise with 4+ hearts
3♦ = limit raise or balanced GF with 4+ hearts
3♥ = mixed raise with 4+ hearts
3♠ = splinter in any suit
3NT = maxi-splinter with spade shortage
4m = maxi-splinters

Hopefully he will see this and correct me if any of it is wrong (or outdated).
(-: Zel :-)
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#20 User is offline   MrAce 

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Posted 2016-October-26, 03:48

View PostZelandakh, on 2016-October-26, 02:21, said:

I would not like to speak for Fred but I believe he does not use a GF spade response after a 1♥ opening but something along the lines of:

1♠ = nat, F1
1NT = semi-forcing
2m = nat, GF
2♥ = constructive
2♠ = GF raise with 4+ hearts
2NT = 12+-15
3♣ = weak raise with 4+ hearts
3♦ = limit raise or balanced GF with 4+ hearts
3♥ = mixed raise with 4+ hearts
3♠ = splinter in any suit
3NT = maxi-splinter with spade shortage
4m = maxi-splinters

Hopefully he will see this and correct me if any of it is wrong (or outdated).


Not sure if she meant this but some good players play 2♠ GF, not 1♠ in the auction

1♥--1♠
2♦--2♠ (they put all 6 card spade hands that are below invitation in direct 2 sp respond)

But our OP is 2cl rebid by opener so....idk.
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