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A discussion with Mike 777 last night got me thinking...
With 35(32) shape and a minimum, it is usually quite reasonable to raise partner's 1♠ response to 1♥. If you are going to do this most of the time, then partner need not consider rebidding a 5 card ♠ suit, so you can rebid 1NT on minimum 25(42) and 15(43) shapes. This has the benefit of showing that you are minimum (no need for partner to invite with 2NT or 3m over your minor suit rebid, and he can show a limit raise with 2♥ instead of 3♥) and it may well be the best spot on a misfit. It also means that 1♥:1♠, 2m will usually have either 5-5 or 6-4 shape, or slight extras, making it safer for partner to invite.
If you are going to do this, there are probably some hands that should suppress a (weak) 4 card spade suit and respond 1NT; As long as partner knows that on a strong hand with both majors he must reverse into spades to look for a fit this should work out ok. Maybe this should not apply to those playing 2/1, particularly with a forcing NT, as these sequences are quite ugly compared to those playing light 2/1s.
Am I right in thinking there are two distinct styles here? Any thoughts?
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1H:1S, 1N 2-3 spades or 1-2?
#1
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Posted 2006-January-04, 09:54
#2
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Posted 2006-January-04, 10:01
I wouldn't raise 1♠ on three-card support with a pick-up partner, since I'm afraid it's not "standard". However, I sometimes do this with both regular f2f partners, based on partnership understanding. With one p I even have the agreement that a rebid of 2m shows extras, so off-shape 1NT rebid is systematic.
But I'm surprised you say that
1♥-1♠
1NT-2♥
is a limit raise. What to do with 5-7 HCPs and 3-card support, assuming that a direct raise shows 8-10? Bypass spades and respond 1NT? Or pass the 1NT rebid?
But I'm surprised you say that
1♥-1♠
1NT-2♥
is a limit raise. What to do with 5-7 HCPs and 3-card support, assuming that a direct raise shows 8-10? Bypass spades and respond 1NT? Or pass the 1NT rebid?
The world would be such a happy place, if only everyone played Acol :) --- TramTicket
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Posted 2006-January-04, 10:05
I have never heard of people systemically rebidding 1N with 25(42) or 15(43) so I don't know if it classifies as a "distrinct style." Or maybe a lot of people play this way and I am just sheltered.
Anyways, it seems like there are many drawbacks to this. The most obvious being 1543 will often play better in a 4-4/4-3/5-2 fit. That shape, in general, is better for suit play. 2542 will also very often play better in a suit, even if it's a 5-2 fit.
Being forced to raise on 3 is also a little restrictive for my tastes. Not all 35(32)s are created equal. I like systems where I can excersize judgement and get the general nature of my hand across the best way I feel. xxx Kxxxx KQx AJ for instance, I would never raise with. KQx AKxxx xxx xx I would always raise with etc.
All this being said, it seems your method is very playable and could get some good results whenever 2 of a minor is rebid. It's unclear, though, how useful it would be knowing that 2m=10 CARDS in H+minor since 6-4 and 5-5 are quite different.
Anyways, it seems like there are many drawbacks to this. The most obvious being 1543 will often play better in a 4-4/4-3/5-2 fit. That shape, in general, is better for suit play. 2542 will also very often play better in a suit, even if it's a 5-2 fit.
Being forced to raise on 3 is also a little restrictive for my tastes. Not all 35(32)s are created equal. I like systems where I can excersize judgement and get the general nature of my hand across the best way I feel. xxx Kxxxx KQx AJ for instance, I would never raise with. KQx AKxxx xxx xx I would always raise with etc.
All this being said, it seems your method is very playable and could get some good results whenever 2 of a minor is rebid. It's unclear, though, how useful it would be knowing that 2m=10 CARDS in H+minor since 6-4 and 5-5 are quite different.
#4
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Posted 2006-January-04, 10:24
Elianna and I actually play something like what you describe. Our general policy is to frequently raise partner's major suit response with three-card support. A 1NT rebid rarely supresses 3-card support. However, our methods allow judgement much as Justin describes:
xxx Kxxxx KQx AJ = open 1♥, rebid 1NT
xx AJxxx Qxxx AQ = open 1♥, rebid 1NT
x KQxxx QJxx KQx = open 1♥, rebid 1NT
xx JTxxx AKxx KQ = open 1♥, rebid 1NT
x KQJxx AQxx xxx = open 1♥, rebid 2♦
xx AQxxx KT9x Ax = open 1♥, rebid 2♦
Qxx Kxxxx AQ Axx = open 1NT (15-17)
xxx KQJxx Ax KQx = open 1♥, rebid 2♣
The general rules are as follows:
(1) With points in the long suits, tend to bid the suits. These hands are often more oriented to suit play, and a strong heart suit will often fare better in a 5-2 heart fit than in 1NT.
(2) With a weak heart suit, tend to avoid rebidding 2-minor as this will often lead to a 5-2 heart fit when partner lacks game values. Hands with weak heart suits usually rebid 1NT, or open 1NT (if stronger), or raise partner's spades.
(3) With a strong 3-card fragment in a 15(43) pattern, tend to rebid 1NT; similarly a very strong doubleton tends to indicate a 1NT rebid. Weakness in the "fourth suit" normally makes a minor suit rebid more appealing.
In response to Helene, we do not play a 2♥ correction as a limit raise -- this shows either a weak preference on three (usually 4-6 hcp as we do not play constructive raises) or a shapely hand with doubleton (for example a weak 5-2-1-5 might play best in the 5-2 heart fit). However, we use 2-way nmf and can show a limit raise via 2♣ followed by 2♥ and still stop at the two level. Similarly we can show a spade invite via 2♣ followed by 2♠ (this is normally a good five card suit or a poor six card suit with something like 10-11 points).
xxx Kxxxx KQx AJ = open 1♥, rebid 1NT
xx AJxxx Qxxx AQ = open 1♥, rebid 1NT
x KQxxx QJxx KQx = open 1♥, rebid 1NT
xx JTxxx AKxx KQ = open 1♥, rebid 1NT
x KQJxx AQxx xxx = open 1♥, rebid 2♦
xx AQxxx KT9x Ax = open 1♥, rebid 2♦
Qxx Kxxxx AQ Axx = open 1NT (15-17)
xxx KQJxx Ax KQx = open 1♥, rebid 2♣
The general rules are as follows:
(1) With points in the long suits, tend to bid the suits. These hands are often more oriented to suit play, and a strong heart suit will often fare better in a 5-2 heart fit than in 1NT.
(2) With a weak heart suit, tend to avoid rebidding 2-minor as this will often lead to a 5-2 heart fit when partner lacks game values. Hands with weak heart suits usually rebid 1NT, or open 1NT (if stronger), or raise partner's spades.
(3) With a strong 3-card fragment in a 15(43) pattern, tend to rebid 1NT; similarly a very strong doubleton tends to indicate a 1NT rebid. Weakness in the "fourth suit" normally makes a minor suit rebid more appealing.
In response to Helene, we do not play a 2♥ correction as a limit raise -- this shows either a weak preference on three (usually 4-6 hcp as we do not play constructive raises) or a shapely hand with doubleton (for example a weak 5-2-1-5 might play best in the 5-2 heart fit). However, we use 2-way nmf and can show a limit raise via 2♣ followed by 2♥ and still stop at the two level. Similarly we can show a spade invite via 2♣ followed by 2♠ (this is normally a good five card suit or a poor six card suit with something like 10-11 points).
Adam W. Meyerson
a.k.a. Appeal Without Merit
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#5
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Posted 2006-January-04, 11:06
I've never played constructive raises, and nearly always show 3 card support immediately on a weak hand, so I think it is reasonable for 2♥ to show a limit raise (particularly if the 1NT rebid has a little more variation in shape, so could well still be worth accepting an invite).
Justin, I agree your example hand isn't a raise - but then I've litte desire to play a 5-3 spade part-score on this hand, so I don't mind denying 3 card support. Maybe opener should rebid 2♥ on a dead minimum 6♥4m so that 2m specifically promises 5-5 or a few extra values?
Edit: Upon reflection, maybe just the inference that it is a suit orientated hand is worthwhile, I agree that x KQJxx AQxx xxx should always be rebidding 2♦
Justin, I agree your example hand isn't a raise - but then I've litte desire to play a 5-3 spade part-score on this hand, so I don't mind denying 3 card support. Maybe opener should rebid 2♥ on a dead minimum 6♥4m so that 2m specifically promises 5-5 or a few extra values?
Edit: Upon reflection, maybe just the inference that it is a suit orientated hand is worthwhile, I agree that x KQJxx AQxx xxx should always be rebidding 2♦
#6
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Posted 2006-January-04, 12:10
awm, on Jan 4 2006, 11:24 AM, said:
Elianna and I actually play something like what you describe. Our general policy is to frequently raise partner's major suit response with three-card support. A 1NT rebid rarely supresses 3-card support. However, our methods allow judgement much as Justin describes:
xxx Kxxxx KQx AJ = open 1♥, rebid 1NT
PASS NOT 1H
xx AJxxx Qxxx AQ = open 1♥, rebid 1NT
PASS NOT 1H
x KQxxx QJxx KQx = open 1♥, rebid 1NT
PASS NOT 1H
xx JTxxx AKxx KQ = open 1♥, rebid 1NT
PASS NOT 1H
x KQJxx AQxx xxx = open 1♥, rebid 2♦
1H REBID 2H BUT UNDERSTAND PASS NOT 1H
xx AQxxx KT9x Ax = open 1♥, rebid 2♦
1H REBID 1NT BUT 2D REBID IS CLOSE.
Qxx Kxxxx AQ Axx = open 1NT (15-17)
1H REBID 1NT
xxx KQJxx Ax KQx = open 1♥, rebid 2♣
1H REBID 1NT or 2C.
The general rules are as follows:
(1) With points in the long suits, tend to bid the suits. These hands are often more oriented to suit play, and a strong heart suit will often fare better in a 5-2 heart fit than in 1NT.
(2) With a weak heart suit, tend to avoid rebidding 2-minor as this will often lead to a 5-2 heart fit when partner lacks game values. Hands with weak heart suits usually rebid 1NT, or open 1NT (if stronger), or raise partner's spades.
(3) With a strong 3-card fragment in a 15(43) pattern, tend to rebid 1NT; similarly a very strong doubleton tends to indicate a 1NT rebid. Weakness in the "fourth suit" normally makes a minor suit rebid more appealing.
In response to Helene, we do not play a 2♥ correction as a limit raise -- this shows either a weak preference on three (usually 4-6 hcp as we do not play constructive raises) or a shapely hand with doubleton (for example a weak 5-2-1-5 might play best in the 5-2 heart fit). However, we use 2-way nmf and can show a limit raise via 2♣ followed by 2♥ and still stop at the two level. Similarly we can show a spade invite via 2♣ followed by 2♠ (this is normally a good five card suit or a poor six card suit with something like 10-11 points).
xxx Kxxxx KQx AJ = open 1♥, rebid 1NT
PASS NOT 1H
xx AJxxx Qxxx AQ = open 1♥, rebid 1NT
PASS NOT 1H
x KQxxx QJxx KQx = open 1♥, rebid 1NT
PASS NOT 1H
xx JTxxx AKxx KQ = open 1♥, rebid 1NT
PASS NOT 1H
x KQJxx AQxx xxx = open 1♥, rebid 2♦
1H REBID 2H BUT UNDERSTAND PASS NOT 1H
xx AQxxx KT9x Ax = open 1♥, rebid 2♦
1H REBID 1NT BUT 2D REBID IS CLOSE.
Qxx Kxxxx AQ Axx = open 1NT (15-17)
1H REBID 1NT
xxx KQJxx Ax KQx = open 1♥, rebid 2♣
1H REBID 1NT or 2C.
The general rules are as follows:
(1) With points in the long suits, tend to bid the suits. These hands are often more oriented to suit play, and a strong heart suit will often fare better in a 5-2 heart fit than in 1NT.
(2) With a weak heart suit, tend to avoid rebidding 2-minor as this will often lead to a 5-2 heart fit when partner lacks game values. Hands with weak heart suits usually rebid 1NT, or open 1NT (if stronger), or raise partner's spades.
(3) With a strong 3-card fragment in a 15(43) pattern, tend to rebid 1NT; similarly a very strong doubleton tends to indicate a 1NT rebid. Weakness in the "fourth suit" normally makes a minor suit rebid more appealing.
In response to Helene, we do not play a 2♥ correction as a limit raise -- this shows either a weak preference on three (usually 4-6 hcp as we do not play constructive raises) or a shapely hand with doubleton (for example a weak 5-2-1-5 might play best in the 5-2 heart fit). However, we use 2-way nmf and can show a limit raise via 2♣ followed by 2♥ and still stop at the two level. Similarly we can show a spade invite via 2♣ followed by 2♠ (this is normally a good five card suit or a poor six card suit with something like 10-11 points).
Excellent rules Adam though I raise on 3 card support much less than you do.
#7
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Posted 2006-January-04, 17:16
MickyB, on Jan 4 2006, 10:54 AM, said:
A discussion with Mike 777 last night got me thinking...
With 35(32) shape and a minimum, it is usually quite reasonable to raise partner's 1♠ response to 1♥. If you are going to do this most of the time, then partner need not consider rebidding a 5 card ♠ suit, so you can rebid 1NT on minimum 25(42) and 15(43) shapes. This has the benefit of showing that you are minimum (no need for partner to invite with 2NT or 3m over your minor suit rebid, and he can show a limit raise with 2♥ instead of 3♥) and it may well be the best spot on a misfit. It also means that 1♥:1♠, 2m will usually have either 5-5 or 6-4 shape, or slight extras, making it safer for partner to invite.
If you are going to do this, there are probably some hands that should suppress a (weak) 4 card spade suit and respond 1NT; As long as partner knows that on a strong hand with both majors he must reverse into spades to look for a fit this should work out ok. Maybe this should not apply to those playing 2/1, particularly with a forcing NT, as these sequences are quite ugly compared to those playing light 2/1s.
Am I right in thinking there are two distinct styles here? Any thoughts?
With 35(32) shape and a minimum, it is usually quite reasonable to raise partner's 1♠ response to 1♥. If you are going to do this most of the time, then partner need not consider rebidding a 5 card ♠ suit, so you can rebid 1NT on minimum 25(42) and 15(43) shapes. This has the benefit of showing that you are minimum (no need for partner to invite with 2NT or 3m over your minor suit rebid, and he can show a limit raise with 2♥ instead of 3♥) and it may well be the best spot on a misfit. It also means that 1♥:1♠, 2m will usually have either 5-5 or 6-4 shape, or slight extras, making it safer for partner to invite.
If you are going to do this, there are probably some hands that should suppress a (weak) 4 card spade suit and respond 1NT; As long as partner knows that on a strong hand with both majors he must reverse into spades to look for a fit this should work out ok. Maybe this should not apply to those playing 2/1, particularly with a forcing NT, as these sequences are quite ugly compared to those playing light 2/1s.
Am I right in thinking there are two distinct styles here? Any thoughts?
I concede your method is superior, how could I ever question you.
Still not going to surpress 4 card spade suit unless 5432 spots.
1h=1s
1nt with ...x...AKxxx...Axxx...Qxx
note 2c does not have to be 6-4- or 55
1h=1s
2c
x...AQTxxx....AJX....AJx
Not sure what you are saying about....limit raise in h. I assume we are playing constructive raises.
#8
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Posted 2006-January-04, 18:06
i'd say that i'll either open 1nt or rebid 1nt with a 35(32) hand 99% of the time... i have raised partner with 3 card support before, but i don't like to... there are always ways to find a fit... even if it went 1h (p) 1s (p) 1nt (p) 2c puppet to 2d, then i'd bypass 2d to bid 2s with 3523 or 3532
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#9
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Posted 2006-January-05, 00:20
I have totally perverted concepts regarding this: I don't think 1543 is a NT hand.
NT to me shows values and shape. If I'm suit oriented, I do something really weird and try to find a suit fit. I must be way ahead of my time....
Winston
NT to me shows values and shape. If I'm suit oriented, I do something really weird and try to find a suit fit. I must be way ahead of my time....
Winston
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere."
#10
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Posted 2006-January-05, 00:35
Winstonm, on Jan 5 2006, 01:20 AM, said:
I have totally perverted concepts regarding this: I don't think 1543 is a NT hand.
NT to me shows values and shape. If I'm suit oriented, I do something really weird and try to find a suit fit. I must be way ahead of my time....
Winston
NT to me shows values and shape. If I'm suit oriented, I do something really weird and try to find a suit fit. I must be way ahead of my time....
Winston
well the problem is 2d does not show values or limit hand.
where 1nt does limit hand...and 2d shows extra's
I grant you this is far from generally accepted.
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Posted 2006-January-05, 01:15
I disagree that 2-minor shows extras. In my opinion this style is not very playable -- if I can't bid my minor with a minimum 5-5 hand this will lead to a lot of awful partscore contracts.
On the other hand, 1NT has several advantages: it does limit the hand, allowing stops in 1NT on hands where we might reach 3-minor or 2NT otherwise. It also keeps the fourth suit in the picture as a potential place to play (assuming 4th suit forcing you can't easily get to clubs after a start of 1♥-1♠-2♦ for example). Playing 2-way nmf you can stop in 2♥ or 2♠ on various invites that would probably get you to the three level after a 2-minor rebid. I'm also of the opinion that many hands where you actually don't have an eight card fit will play better in 1NT than in a 4-3 or 5-2 fit partial. Obviously this depends a bit on the hands involved, but there are certainly signs one way or the other (a robust five card suit is more likely to play well in a 5-2 for example) and at a minimum the ability to use judgement here is useful.
On the other hand, 1NT has several advantages: it does limit the hand, allowing stops in 1NT on hands where we might reach 3-minor or 2NT otherwise. It also keeps the fourth suit in the picture as a potential place to play (assuming 4th suit forcing you can't easily get to clubs after a start of 1♥-1♠-2♦ for example). Playing 2-way nmf you can stop in 2♥ or 2♠ on various invites that would probably get you to the three level after a 2-minor rebid. I'm also of the opinion that many hands where you actually don't have an eight card fit will play better in 1NT than in a 4-3 or 5-2 fit partial. Obviously this depends a bit on the hands involved, but there are certainly signs one way or the other (a robust five card suit is more likely to play well in a 5-2 for example) and at a minimum the ability to use judgement here is useful.
Adam W. Meyerson
a.k.a. Appeal Without Merit
a.k.a. Appeal Without Merit
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Posted 2006-January-05, 01:27
awm, on Jan 5 2006, 02:15 AM, said:
I disagree that 2-minor shows extras. In my opinion this style is not very playable -- if I can't bid my minor with a minimum 5-5 hand this will lead to a lot of awful partscore contracts.
On the other hand, 1NT has several advantages: it does limit the hand, allowing stops in 1NT on hands where we might reach 3-minor or 2NT otherwise. It also keeps the fourth suit in the picture as a potential place to play (assuming 4th suit forcing you can't easily get to clubs after a start of 1♥-1♠-2♦ for example). Playing 2-way nmf you can stop in 2♥ or 2♠ on various invites that would probably get you to the three level after a 2-minor rebid. I'm also of the opinion that many hands where you actually don't have an eight card fit will play better in 1NT than in a 4-3 or 5-2 fit partial. Obviously this depends a bit on the hands involved, but there are certainly signs one way or the other (a robust five card suit is more likely to play well in a 5-2 for example) and at a minimum the ability to use judgement here is useful.
On the other hand, 1NT has several advantages: it does limit the hand, allowing stops in 1NT on hands where we might reach 3-minor or 2NT otherwise. It also keeps the fourth suit in the picture as a potential place to play (assuming 4th suit forcing you can't easily get to clubs after a start of 1♥-1♠-2♦ for example). Playing 2-way nmf you can stop in 2♥ or 2♠ on various invites that would probably get you to the three level after a 2-minor rebid. I'm also of the opinion that many hands where you actually don't have an eight card fit will play better in 1NT than in a 4-3 or 5-2 fit partial. Obviously this depends a bit on the hands involved, but there are certainly signs one way or the other (a robust five card suit is more likely to play well in a 5-2 for example) and at a minimum the ability to use judgement here is useful.
1h=1s
1nt
ya takes something to rebid 1nt with:
x...AQTxx....KJ.....Kxxxx but that is the discussion. Again please note the opp are silent! Of course every 1nt rebid does not require 5-5
.
#13 Guest_Jlall_*
Posted 2006-January-05, 09:18
Winstonm, on Jan 5 2006, 01:20 AM, said:
NT to me shows values and shape. If I'm suit oriented, I do something really weird and try to find a suit fit. I must be way ahead of my time....
Winston
Winston
what a concept
#14
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Posted 2006-January-05, 09:22
mike777, on Jan 5 2006, 01:35 AM, said:
Winstonm, on Jan 5 2006, 01:20 AM, said:
I have totally perverted concepts regarding this: I don't think 1543 is a NT hand.
NT to me shows values and shape. If I'm suit oriented, I do something really weird and try to find a suit fit. I must be way ahead of my time....
Winston
NT to me shows values and shape. If I'm suit oriented, I do something really weird and try to find a suit fit. I must be way ahead of my time....
Winston
well the problem is 2d does not show values or limit hand.
where 1nt does limit hand...and 2d shows extra's
I grant you this is far from generally accepted.
The problem with this stucture is that although 1N limits the high cards it now doesn't limit the shape.
2D does limit the hand to a degree; it is less than a jump shift.
Maybe what you would want to do to get the best of both worlds is to use a forcing 1C with any 16+ hand and weak NTs. Now you have a built in limitation on opening bids.
IMO, it is not wise to tamper with NT structures in stadardish bidding as this is the one area that is clearly defined - clear definitions of shape and range makes further bidding much easier.
On the other hand, it is hard to define shapely hands as good or bad as so much depends on fits and shape in partner's hand. Unbalanced hands can rise or decline greatly depending on subsequent bidding, so how can this hand be limited without that knowledge? Seems to me this quest is putting to much emphasis on limiting high card holding when with unbalanced hands it is location of high cards, type of high cards, and fit that ultimately defines the hand.
Winston
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere."
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Posted 2006-January-05, 10:56
I certainly agree that hiding a suit just to limit the hand is contrary to the way most experts play. Most experts prefer to show their suits regardless of how strong they are.
Jump shifting with every good 2 suited has its own dangers. Also keep in mind partner has bid our stiff, not the best sounding of fits at this point in the auction. If you start jump shifting it will be difficult to find out more about partner's fits and shape.
It is important if partner shifts suits that responder take her back to the originial suit, rather than passing when ever responder can picture a third bid by her will give you a good chance for game, even if you have 4 cards in the second suit but have weak overall values.
I only suggest to keep an open mind and experiment with this idea. There may be some value in making weak sounding bids with weak hands.
http://forums.bridge...opic=11879&st=0
See Phil's post thread for a different take on this subject.
Jump shifting with every good 2 suited has its own dangers. Also keep in mind partner has bid our stiff, not the best sounding of fits at this point in the auction. If you start jump shifting it will be difficult to find out more about partner's fits and shape.
It is important if partner shifts suits that responder take her back to the originial suit, rather than passing when ever responder can picture a third bid by her will give you a good chance for game, even if you have 4 cards in the second suit but have weak overall values.
I only suggest to keep an open mind and experiment with this idea. There may be some value in making weak sounding bids with weak hands.
http://forums.bridge...opic=11879&st=0
See Phil's post thread for a different take on this subject.
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