[Codo]

Hi Ron,

maybe you do not talk often to newbies?

At least the ones I know love strict and easy rules:
Raise with an eight card fit.
Open 5 card majors
A 1 NT opening denies a 5 card major.

And so on...

Of course you and many others have other ideas what is the best use for these bids. But this is what they told the newbies. And I guess it it much better for them to stick to their easy rules first.

If they want to learn more, there are much more important things to learn then judging whether you better open 1 NT with a 5 card major or raise a pssible 4 card suit with just 3 card support.

FWIW: I uderstand that this is a clear 2 Spade bid for you (and many others) but I bet that the expert community will be split between 1 NT and 2 Spade with a slightly majority for 1 NT. And this is reason enough to stick to the easy rules.

[P_Marlowe]

jillybean2, on Jul 10 2007, 01:23 PM, said:

..., or very good 5♥'s to rebid ♥'s

No.

The rebid shows a 6 carder, if you have 5 cards
you have other options.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[helene_t]

I agree that other things being equal, simple rules are better than complex rules.

I don't think it's a simple rule that 1NT denies a 5-card major. It's an exception to the rule that 15-17 balanced hands must be opened with 1NT, and it leads to rebid problems.

Raising with a known 8-card fit only is indeed, by itself, a simpler rule than "you may raise with 3-card support if the alternatives are worse". But I wonder if simple rules would catter for a 3145 by opener. I suppose another simple rule is not to bid a 5-card twice.

Now balanced hands are easily and effectively dealt with in bread-and-butter systems. There's no reason to make a problem of this hand, just rebid 1NT. But more generally, I think teaching judgement is more important than teaching rules.

[the hog]

Yeeees, Roland, but you can learn/teach judgement as well. Personally, I think this is an interesting question that was asked as to what the rebid should be. With Hx in the doubleton, I would bid 1NT, with xx, 2S. Also the hand is a bit too good for 1NT - a nice 14 with a decent 5 card suit....

[Edmunte1]

Agree 100% with Robert. When you have more possible bids and one of them is to give fit with 3 cards with honour, take that into consideration. You'll win in the long run, though sometimes you'll have to play some 4-3 fits, but this could sometimes work better than playing 1NT. And at least your partner will sharpen his declaring skills

[jdeegan]

You have produced an excellent example hand to illustrate the advanced art of modifying the classic Milton Work 4-3-2-1 point count method to reflect the true worth of a bridge hand. I suggest the following adjustments:
1) add 1/2 point for each ace - aces are undervalued in the 4-3-2-1 count
2) subtract 1/4 point for each queen or jack - these are overvalued
3) add 1/4 or 1/2 point for useful 109 or J10 or J109 holdings in combination with higher honors in a suit.
4) add 1 point for a small doubleton with three trumps in support of partner's suit - (also, tho not applicable to this hand: 11/2 with four trumps - 3 for a small singleton with four trumps - 5 for a void with four trumps)
On this basis, your hand is worth 15 and 1/2 or 1/4 adjusted points for no trump and 16 and 1/2 or 1/4 for spades. A suggestion made in a previous reply to this thread that you open the hand for 1NT playing a 15-17 range is right on target, and it would have avoided the awkward situation you find yourself in now.
Of the choices now, 1NT is a considerable underbid. 2♥ virtually guarantees a six card suit with a minimum - not at all what you have. 3♠ is OK strengthwise (it shows 16-18 support points for spades), but you should never bid this with only three card support because it commits the hand to be played in spades. 2♠, a slight underbid, is my choice - but if it goes pass-pass and the opponents balance, don't bid 3♠ just because you have extras - you probably do not have enough trumps.

[kenberg]

Codo, on Jul 11 2007, 02:06 AM, said:

maybe you do not talk often to newbies?

At least the ones I know love strict and easy rules:
Raise with an eight card fit.
Open 5 card majors
A 1 NT opening denies a 5 card major.

And so on...

I think this is more a matter of personality than of newbie/oldie. I know some pretty advanced players who insist on four card support to raise a major response. They would also find opening this hand with 1NT an awful choice (actually I'm not that fond of it either). They count the high card points and the total is not 15.

In 1961 I was a newbie, I bought Goren's beginning bridge book, and I still recall his admonition that point count is a guide, not one of the Ten Commandments. He opened four card majors (sometimes) raised major responses on three (sometimes) opened 1N with a five card major (sometimes) and so on. Goren also suggested that people who don't like to use their judgment on hands should take up 500 instead of bridge. I see nothing wrong with starting newbies on day one with the idea that bridge is a game of judgment and that judgments will necessarily differ and necessarily sometimes not work out. As to success in bringing folks to the bridge table, Goren's success is, I think, unmatched.

[P_Marlowe]

jdeegan, on Jul 11 2007, 07:37 AM, said:

You have produced an excellent example hand to illustrate the advanced art of modifying the classic Milton Work 4-3-2-1 point count method to reflect the true worth of a bridge hand.  I suggest the following adjustments:
1) add 1/2 point for each ace - aces are undervalued in the 4-3-2-1 count
2) subtract 1/4 point for each queen or jack - these are overvalued
3) add 1/4 or 1/2 point for useful 109 or J10 or J109 holdings in combination with higher honors in a suit.
4) add 1 point for a small doubleton with three trumps in support of partner's suit - (also, tho not applicable to this hand: 11/2 with four trumps - 3 for a small singleton with four trumps - 5 for a void with four trumps)
On this basis, your hand is worth 15 and 1/2 or 1/4 adjusted points for no trump and 16 and 1/2 or 1/4 for spades.  A suggestion made in a previous reply to this thread that you open the hand for 1NT playing a 15-17 range is right on target, and it would have avoided the awkward situation you find yourself in now.
Of the choices now, 1NT is a considerable underbid.  2♥ virtually guarantees a six card suit with a minimum - not at all what you have. 3♠ is OK strengthwise (it shows 16-18 support points for spades), but you should never bid this with only three card support because it commits the hand to be played in spades.  2♠, a slight underbid, is my choice - but if it goes pass-pass and the opponents balance, don't bid 3♠ just because you have extras - you probably do not have enough trumps.

Just semantics, but:
1NT is a considerable underbid, it shows 12-14
and your calculations say the hand is worth 15.25-15.5,
i.e. 14 vs 15.5

and 2S is just a slight underbid, although it shows 12-15/16
(higher variance) and your evaluation give 16.25-16.5,
i.e. 16 vs 16.5 + higer variance.

I would say 1NT is a more precise description.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[KiwiBridge]

I fail to see how a bid which shows 12-14 can be a considerable underbid when you have 14. And only 3 tricks.

[jdeegan]

KiwiBridge, on Jul 11 2007, 04:00 PM, said:

I fail to see how a bid which shows 12-14 can be a considerable underbid when you have 14.  And only 3 tricks. 

A 1NT rebid shows a minimum opener and a balanced hand (4-3-3-3 or 4-4-3-2 or 5-3-3-2 or possibly 5-4-2-2 or even 4-4-4-1 [with the singleton in partner's suit] shape). Its range should be your minimum opener up to the same hand plus a king. Adjusting the Milton Work 4-3-2-1 count to reflect real bridge hand valuation is one of the steps involved in moving from the intermediate to the advanced skill level. The ability to count hands with some facility is the other.

[Fluffy]

I don't but all those 2♠s at all, I will never play raises with 3 cards, but even I know raising on 5431 has a point. But this a balanced hand.

2♠ won't help you find a 5-3 fit. 1NT ends up playing every 5-3 fit as well.

[awm]

There is a style of bidding where you count your high card points and figure out your shape, and what you bid is completely determined by this.

Such a style is nice because it's easier to teach to beginners. It's also the basis of most modern relay systems, giving it yet another boost among expert players.

However, the reality is that location of values need to come into the equation in some way. Opening 1♥ and rebidding 1nt over 1♠ with xxx AJTxx KJx AJ is quite reasonable. The same auction holding AJx AJTxx KJx xx is somewhat silly, and I would much prefer a 2♠ raise.

Will partner really check back for a club stopper over 1♥-1♠-1nt or will he just boost to 3nt with the values for game (say KQxx Kx AQxx xxx)? Even if you have methods such that partner can and will check back for a stopper, this only helps you when you're going to game. There's a substantial set of hands where opener's rebid will be the last bid of the auction and you should do your utmost to get to a good partial. I suspect that raising spades on the example hand is more likely to get you to this good partial.

[Stephen Tu]

Quote

don't but all those 2♠s at all, I will never play raises with 3 cards, but even I know raising on 5431 has a point. But this a balanced hand.

2♠ won't help you find a 5-3 fit. 1NT ends up playing every 5-3 fit as well

No, it won't. Not unless you have responder rebidding 5 cd suits always. Especially if you play a style I like where opener with minimal 15(34)s rebids 1nt rather than 2m (which limits the hand, allows you to play perhaps the best partial, and takes some strain off of auctions where opener rebids 2m), you don't want responder rebidding 5 cd suits indiscriminately.

And, as Adam pointed out, there are plenty of hands with 4-3 fits where NT is not your best strain, and it is very hard to get out of NT to the 4-3 in most people's methods. It is easier to get from the 4-3 to NT than the other way round for most. Also it gets NT played from the right side of the table which can sometimes mean the difference between success & failure.

[Fluffy]

awm, on Jul 12 2007, 10:29 PM, said:

However, the reality is that location of values need to come into the equation in some way. Opening 1♥ and rebidding 1nt over 1♠ with xxx AJTxx KJx AJ is quite reasonable. The same auction holding AJx AJTxx KJx xx is somewhat silly, and I would much prefer a 2♠ raise.

Will partner really check back for a club stopper over 1♥-1♠-1nt or will he just boost to 3nt with the values for game (say KQxx Kx AQxx xxx)?

We can argue this forever hehe.

Just note that your built up hand (ok, I know you didn't really force it much), makes 3NT in a high%.


There are many things to say about partscores, but in general probably rasing in 3 cards is better, but I hope you will at least agree that 2♠ showing 100% 4 cards helps on accuracy towards slam bidding.