[the hog]

I hae a question that has been bugging me for some time now. I'd like to know whether there is consensus here about the following -
Playing 2/1, the bidding is:

1S 1NT
3H 4C

What would most of you take 4C to mean -
1) Something like x xx xxx KQJTxxx or
2) A cue bid agreeing H

If you treat it as a cue bid agreeing H, what would you bid with my example hand?
If you think it shows a similar hand to my example hand, what would you bid with
say: Kx Kxxx xxx Axxx
I know this is a contrived example, but I guess you get the picture.

[foo]

With x xx (xxx KQJTxxx), I'm lucky since playing 2/1 GF with my chosen agreements this is a Cliff IJS:
1M-3m!
9-11 playing points and a suit that will play for 1- losers opposite a small stiff.

Part of the reason I like playing an IJS of this type is that then I don't have the above hand and your 2nd example of
Kx Kxxx xxx Axxx
both going through the forcing or semi-forcing NT.

...which allows 1S-1N;3H-4C to be used with the 2nd hand w/o me feeling stuck when I'm dealt the first

[P_Marlowe]

#1 I have to check with my partner,
I believe your hand comes close,
although a bit stronger, since we
play weak jump shifts, and hands
going through 1NT are a bit stronger
#2 5C

Personnally I think, that 4C should be a
cue, and the jump to 5C should show the
weak hand, afterall you are already in gf.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[sceptic]

I am sure it is showing control in Hearts

[ArcLight]

1S 1NT
3H 4C

I vote for a cue bid in support of hearts.

Question - if playing 2/1 with a delayed limit raise (10-12 support points & 3 spades) you would start of with 1MT also. How would responder continue inthis sequence?
Opener is very strong, and game is certain, and Slam may be there. How does responder investigate a Spade slam?

4NT is Blackwood for hearts, yes?
A cue bid is in support of hearts.
What is left? 5 Spades? Asking to bid 6 if what?

Or a jump to 4 Spades, implying the delayed limit raise?

[kenrexford]

For me, this is a strange question, as I do not play 3♥ as natural. If I was in a partnership playing 3♥ as natural, I'd treat 4♣ as a cue agreeing hearts. I would not have the KQJ-clubs problem, as I would not start with 2♣ with that hand.

For me, 3♥ shows a stiff or void in hearts (not the Ace or King), three of the top four honors in spades, two of the top three honors in clubs (and at least four of them), and 2-3 diamonds, at most Q-high. 3♠ would agree spades; 3NT would suggest this new strain; and 4♣ would show the missing club honor (a slam probe for clubs).

As a side note. If I were to play 3♥ as natural, and 4♣ as a cue agreeing hearts, I would not cue 4♣ with the hand of ♠Kx ♥Kxxx ♦xxx ♣Axxx. That's a balanced 10-count, and I do not force game with a balanced 10-count.

These examples confuse me. You have announced "2/1" and not "2/1 GF." Most assume that these terms are interchangeable. However, your two problem hands are a 6-count and a balanced 10-count. What the Heck is the system used?

[helene_t]

Ken, what are you smoking?
1♠-1N
3♥
3♥ forces to game in standard methods. Your "balanced 10-count" is about as slamish as it can be, considering that you limited your hand with 1N and that you're now fored to bid 4♥ with J-QJx-QJxxxx-xxx.

[kenrexford]

helene_t, on Jul 9 2007, 07:17 AM, said:

Ken, what are you smoking?
1♠-1N
3♥
3♥ forces to game in standard methods. Your "balanced 10-count" is about as slamish as it can be, considering that you limited your hand with 1N and that you're now fored to bid 4♥ with J-QJx-QJxxxx-xxx.

Oops -- early in the morning. I completely read this problem wrong. I thought the auction was 1♠-P-2♣-P-3♥ for some reason.

Now I understand. Completely different analysis, now.

1♠-P-1NT-P-3H-P-?

I play this as 5-5 with a five-loser hand. So:

Pass = to play
3♠ = to play
3NT = to play
4M = to play
4♣ = agrees hearts, says nothing about clubs, general slam try
4♦ = agrees spades, says nothing about clubs, general slam try

If I were playing a technique where 3♥ was a GF, then 3♠ would not be passable, allowing 4-minor, either one, to agree hearts and be a legitimate cue (although 4♦ would be a general cue, strongly suggesting a diamond control but not with a guarantee).

With the KQJ-clubs hand, life would suck.

[mikeh]

Jlall, on Jul 9 2007, 12:59 AM, said:

100 % cuebid for hearts. I am sure this is an expert consensus (in north america).

Agreed

With the nightmare hand (1=2 in the majors, a long minor and no ability to bid 3N), take the false preference to 3♠ and pray partner can bid 3N or that his suits are really good.

There is a school that uses 1♠ 1N 3♥ as gf with at least 5♥s: with only 4♥s, one bids 3♣ which is gf but ambiguous. I like this treatment, even tho it makes finding clubs slightly more difficult. Opposite me, with 1=2 in the majors and a nightmare hand, you can safely raise to 4♥.

With 1=1 in the majors... don't call me.. I'll call you

[pclayton]

It should be a cue for hearts, although the last time my pard bid like this he had an 8 card club suit.

[kenrexford]

5♣ is also an option, fingers definitely crossed. That's natural.

[TimG]

The_Hog, on Jul 9 2007, 12:12 AM, said:

I hae a question that has been bugging me for some time now. I'd like to know whether there is consensus here about the following -
Playing 2/1, the bidding is:

1S 1NT
3H 4C

What would most of you take 4C to mean -
1) Something like x xx xxx KQJTxxx or
2) A cue bid agreeing H

If you treat it as a cue bid agreeing H, what would you bid with my example hand?

I think 4♣ agrees hearts. With example (1) I would take the false preference to spades.

[junyi_zhu]

The_Hog, on Jul 9 2007, 05:12 AM, said:

I hae a question that has been bugging me for some time now. I'd like to know whether there is consensus here about the following -
Playing 2/1, the bidding is:

1S 1NT
3H 4C

What would most of you take 4C to mean -
1) Something like x xx xxx KQJTxxx or
2) A cue bid agreeing H

If you treat it as a cue bid agreeing H, what would you bid with my example hand?
If you think it shows a similar hand to my example hand, what would you bid with
say: Kx Kxxx xxx Axxx
I know this is a contrived example, but I guess you get the picture.

cue and set up H as trumps. With very long C, you either gamble 5C or 3nt.
Actually I play sequences like:
2C 2D
3D 4C as a conventional raise as well, with long C, I'd still gamble 3nt or 5C.
The basic idea is that when partner shows a strong hand and you can't show
your club suit below 3nt, there is no reason to assume that 4C is a better bid than
3NT or 5C.

[kenrexford]

Jlall, on Jul 9 2007, 12:42 PM, said:

Ken, I don't agree with the idea of flag bids in this auction since if you have spades you can just start with 3S.

Also I agree that 5C is natural, in fact I had that auction recently (I had 8 clubs and 4 diamonds lol).

You do not need flag bids if 3♠ is forcing. However, you should see that I have described that I only use flags when 3♥ shows a 5-5 hand with five losers. By definition, this cannot be a very strong HCP hand and is, hence, non-forcing. Thus, 3♠ can be passed and is not an option. That's when you need flags.

[the hog]

Thanks to all who responded. Interesting discussion.

[jdonn]

Cuebid for hearts, and 4NT over 3♥ should be natural (another bonus to being able to agree hearts another way). With your first example I would just bid 5♣ over 3♥. I think a false preference to spades is praying for a torturous auction to a silly contract much of the time.

[Fluffy]

mikeh, on Jul 9 2007, 03:14 PM, said:

There is a school that uses 1♠ 1N 3♥ as gf with at least 5♥s: with only 4♥s, one bids 3♣ which is gf but ambiguous. I like this treatment, even tho it makes finding clubs slightly more difficult. Opposite me, with 1=2 in the majors and a nightmare hand, you can safely raise to 4♥.

With 1=1 in the majors... don't call me.. I'll call you

Our school teaches 5-5 but 2NT can be unbalanced (but is GF anyway), you have also problems to find clubs when partner has 4 because 3♣ next is a relay askign for 4c suits.


with 1-1 in the majors, even with 1-2 on the given hand I feel inclined to bid 5♣.