[sheilafran]

We open 1NT with a five card major .. what i want to know is, with a good 5 card major ie AKJxx, is it better to bid the major.

Also what is the correct bid

1c by rho

you hold

Qxx
Kx
AKJxx
Kxx

Is it better to overcall diamonds or 1nt

Thanks
Sheila

[the hog]

You will get many different answers. To a large extent the answer you are seeking is dictated by your system. Personally I feel that all balanced hands, 5 card M or not, should be opened 1NT if in the approriate range.

On your second example I would bid 1NT. You have a nice source of tricks in Ds and the 1NT bid expresses the value of the hand better.

[han]

Agree with 1NT on the second hand, best description.

First question is a matter of taste, in practice I always open 1NT.

[jdonn]

I have gone through times of always to never opening 1NT with a 5 card major, and everything in between. And I am 100% convinced I know the truth now. So here it is....it sometimes works well, sometimes works badly, and sometimes makes no difference! I would just do what you are comfortable with, but in theory and in practice I believe it's right do use judgment based on your hand, mostly how suit oriented it is. But whenever my partner has a preference I go with it. I'd say playing with myself I would open 1NT about 5 out of 8 times with a five card major.

[gwnn]

1NT is a nice bid on the second hand because it's easier for partner to place you in game or the correct partial if you bid 1NT now.

Basically overcalling 1♦ works if you belong to ♦ or you don't belong anywhere (i.e. partner is broke) and overcalling 1♦ works if you belong to NT or a major. The added bonus of reaching game in a much easier manner definitely tilts this decision towards 1NT.

Opening 1NT on 5 hearts is always good if you are a simple soul. Otherwise you have to invent a 3 card minor or rebid a 5 card heart suit on all them 15-17's over 1♥-p-1♠... Also, 1NT preempts them out of spades a lot. On 5 spades it should be only optional. But, with the risk of repeating myself, usually partner will be better placed if he knows your exact range. Well, you'll lose some against all those 1♠-p-2♠ all pass dudes, but what are you gonna do.

[655321]

(1) My preference is always to open 1NT, but there are many opinions about this one.

(2) Easy 1NT. Really, this is the only choice. More interesting is the same hand with the diamonds swapped with a major. I would still overcall 1NT, but now you would get votes for overcalling in your 5 card major.

[CSGibson]

I personally open 1NT with 5 card majors the majority of the time, but I have heard a lot of theory from various people who sometimes do and sometimes don't.

One fellow I know will bid NT if his suit is hearts, but not spades.

Another will bid NT if he has 3 of the other major, but not if he has 2.

A third will look at the suit itself: If it is solid or has 2 holes, he bids the major, if it has 1 or 3 holes, he opens NT.

A fourth looks at the rest of his hand; if it's full of soft values, he bids NT, Aces he bids the suit.

I neither espouse nor deny any of these theories, but I do consider all of those factors when making a decision.

[mike777]

I open nt with a 5 card major unless xx in a side suit. Lots of opinions.

[awm]

I've tried both styles, and I'm convinced opening 1M with these hands is usually better.

Most of the reasons for opening 1NT are "system" reasons -- your system doesn't give you a good rebid after 1♥-1♠ or 1♠-1NT when you have 15-17 balanced. Obviously system is a reason for picking one bid over another, but it's not an argument that the bid you're selecting is actually "better" -- just an argument that your choice of follow-ups is restricting your options.

Assuming you have "good" follow-ups, when you have a game on power it's unlikely to matter what you open. You can get to either of 4M or 3NT after either opening; you can find out about the five card major by playing puppet stayman or something over 1NT, or find out about opener's values over 1M by using structured methods after a 2/1 call. The only time it should really matter what you open (in a fundamental way not dependent on your choice of follow-ups) will be on hands where the auction stops in a partial.

In these cases, I think opening the major is a big winner. If your side has less than half the points, you will often make 1M when you can't make 1NT. 2M on a 5-3 or even 5-2 fit is likely a better partial than 1NT. And you will find some light games where responder has 3-4 cards in the major and side shortness, but would pass a 1NT opening. There aren't any hands where you can make game but partner passes a 1M call (it takes a lot less to bid over 1M than 1NT). The only really likely partscore win from a 1NT opening is being able to find a fit in the other major a bit more easily. But if opener has 5-3-3-2 shape, which do you think is more likely, a 5-3 spade fit or a 5-3 heart fit? And which is more likely to produce an extra trick, the potential 5-3 fit where the 3-card holding is in the possibly unbalanced hand, or where the 3-card holding is in a flat hand?

Of course, I've played systems that "tie my hands" in this sense, where the follow-up methods simply force me to open 1NT with a five-card major. And I agree that there are situations where the major is really bad (for example) and you're better off opening 1NT to avoid playing a 5-2 fit at the two-level. But when system permits a choice I open 1M most of the time on these hands.

[P_Marlowe]

#1 a matter of style, I always open with 1 of the mayor,
the advantage for me, I dont need to decide, if the
quality of the suit is sufficient
#2 1 NT, you tell partner at onece about your shape,
and strength

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Echognome]

awm, on Jan 31 2008, 11:06 PM, said:

I've tried both styles, and I'm convinced opening 1M with these hands is usually better.

Most of the reasons for opening 1NT are "system" reasons -- your system doesn't give you a good rebid after 1♥-1♠ or 1♠-1NT when you have 15-17 balanced. Obviously system is a reason for picking one bid over another, but it's not an argument that the bid you're selecting is actually "better" -- just an argument that your choice of follow-ups is restricting your options.

Assuming you have "good" follow-ups, when you have a game on power it's unlikely to matter what you open. You can get to either of 4M or 3NT after either opening; you can find out about the five card major by playing puppet stayman or something over 1NT, or find out about opener's values over 1M by using structured methods after a 2/1 call. The only time it should really matter what you open (in a fundamental way not dependent on your choice of follow-ups) will be on hands where the auction stops in a partial.

In these cases, I think opening the major is a big winner. If your side has less than half the points, you will often make 1M when you can't make 1NT. 2M on a 5-3 or even 5-2 fit is likely a better partial than 1NT. And you will find some light games where responder has 3-4 cards in the major and side shortness, but would pass a 1NT opening. There aren't any hands where you can make game but partner passes a 1M call (it takes a lot less to bid over 1M than 1NT). The only really likely partscore win from a 1NT opening is being able to find a fit in the other major a bit more easily. But if opener has 5-3-3-2 shape, which do you think is more likely, a 5-3 spade fit or a 5-3 heart fit? And which is more likely to produce an extra trick, the potential 5-3 fit where the 3-card holding is in the possibly unbalanced hand, or where the 3-card holding is in a flat hand?

Of course, I've played systems that "tie my hands" in this sense, where the follow-up methods simply force me to open 1NT with a five-card major. And I agree that there are situations where the major is really bad (for example) and you're better off opening 1NT to avoid playing a 5-2 fit at the two-level. But when system permits a choice I open 1M most of the time on these hands.

So we aren't considering the effect it has on opponents being able to overcall at the 1-level? Or to obstruct the opponents from finding their game.

[Gerben42]

There is a huge diffrence between 5♥332 and 5♠332. The upsides are larger if your major is ♥, that's one thing that's sure. Anyway, I'm used to playing a style where 5332 is balanced, regardless of what the major is. Sometimes it's good, sometimes not.

Sometimes missing the 5 - 3 major fit and playing 3NT is a blessing.

[Codo]

In our standard systems here in Germany iít is more or less forbidden to open 1 NT with a 5 card major. This influences many players so that it is a very small minority who bid 1 NT with all 5332s.
To alwyays open 1m with five of the suit is no bad idea, Adam mentioned some advantages for this method.

But like Josh and others, I tried different approaches myself with the same experiences: As long as you and your partner agree, everything works well.

For me it was a big gain to play weak NT including the 5 card major, no matter how the honour location was. But the main advantage was not the more frequent 1 NT opening and the uninformative bidding.
The main advantage for me had been that the 1 M openings are better defiend. They always have extra playing strength and do not include the dreaded weak 5332 hands.

And I strongly agree with Justin on one point: The strength and possible shape of your 1 NT opening is such a central cornerstone in any bidding system that any even small change has a big impact on the complete bidding system.

[Gerben42]

Quote

In our standard systems here in Germany iít is more or less forbidden to open 1 NT with a 5 card major.

... which is surprising because French top players don't mind

[helene_t]

I think the quality of the 5-card major is not so relevant. Playing a strong 1NT system, your alternative to 1NT is to describe the hand as a 2-suiter, so what is relevant is whether you have a decent 3-card clubs that looks like a 4-card. Also a doubleton in the other major could be a reason for not opening 1NT since you may end up in the wrong major if p transfers. And as Gerben said there is a difference between hearts and spades. Especially at favorable vulnerability I am eager to open 1NT with five hearts.

[Codo]

Gerben42, on Feb 1 2008, 08:40 PM, said:

Quote

In our standard systems here in Germany iít is more or less forbidden to open 1 NT with a 5 card major.

... which is surprising because French top players don't mind

But we live in Germany, we obey the laws.

Is there any expression in English for "päpstlicher als der Papst?"

[helene_t]

Codo, on Feb 1 2008, 02:23 PM, said:

Is there any expression in English for "päpstlicher als der Papst?"

"More Roman than the Pope" gives 227 hits on Google while "More Catholic than the Pope" gives 20,000. So I stand corrected. Tx Csaba ♥.

This post has been edited by helene_t: 2008-February-01, 07:21

[gwnn]

Codo, on Feb 1 2008, 02:23 PM, said:

Gerben42, on Feb 1 2008, 08:40 PM, said:

Quote

In our standard systems here in Germany iít is more or less forbidden to open 1 NT with a 5 card major.

... which is surprising because French top players don't mind

But we live in Germany, we obey the laws.

Is there any expression in English for "päpstlicher als der Papst?"

More Catholic than the Pope.