[Al_U_Card]

Since we can pass the 2NT bid, I take it to mean, NT is out, take a preference to one of my suits. The proviso is that clubs should be as long or longer than hearts.

[Cascade]

mikeh, on Feb 28 2008, 10:07 AM, said:

Good problem: I will try to remember to ask my partners this question: I don't know what standard is.

Question: with 2=4=2=5 bust, would we bid 2♥ or 2♣?

Certainly, with that hand and a 1♦ opening, we'd all bid 1♥. But would we do so over 1♠, where survival is our immediate goal? After all, in standard advancing methods over a takeout double of 1♠, 2♥ is very wide range and thus, because a ten trick game is more attractive than an 11 trick game, 2♥ is more likely to attract a raise than is 2♣.

I think that this issue colours the correct approach to the posed question. If we respond 2♣ with the 4=5 bust, we have significantly reduced the number of hands to which we need to cater, playing 3♣ as NF.

I bid 2♣ with that hand.

Maybe you are right and this has serious implications for the nature of a subsequent 3♣ when partner shows a very strong hand with 2NT.

Nevertheless our current meta-agreement over 2NT is that 3minor is NF and 3Major is Forcing.

[kfay]

Certainly sounds nonforcing to me but I think I like forcing better.

[whereagles]

mikeh, on Feb 27 2008, 09:07 PM, said:

Question: with 2=4=2=5 bust, would we bid 2♥ or 2♣?

Playing ELC, 2♥ is obvious. Else it's a toss.

If, however, one agrees to always bid 2♣, then 2♥+3♣ over 2NT is even more forcing. There may be a point in 3♣ NF playing the other way (ELC or 2♥ mandatory). Still, I prefer forcing.

god, that was messy

[jdeegan]

3♣ nonforcing is a useful bid. 3♣ forcing is not a useful bid. Therefore, 3♣ cannot be forcing.

[gwnn]

jdeegan, on Mar 1 2008, 02:08 PM, said:

3♣ nonforcing is a useful bid.  3♣ forcing is not a useful bid.  Therefore, 3♣ cannot be forcing.

xx
xxxx
xx
xxxxx

3♣ nonforcing, woo hoo

xx
QJxx
xx
Kxxxx

3♣ nonforcing ^#$#@%&&@#%^@#$^#$^#

[Codo]

gwnn, on Mar 1 2008, 09:18 PM, said:

xx
QJxx
xx
Kxxxx

3♣ nonforcing ^#$#@%&&@#%^@#$^#$^#

There is the "remote" possibility that you do not need 3 CLub forcing with this hand. You may think about a 3 NT bid instead.

But maybe x,QJxxx,xx,QJxxx is a good example for a forcing 3 Club bid?
Besides all hands, which try to play slam?

[Fluffy]

Gerben42, on Feb 27 2008, 08:24 AM, said:

3♣ shows "Help, we might already be too high".

I agree with Gerben, looks like the most likelly outcome.

Phil said:

This is a different situation Nuno.

When you make a transfer, the NT opener's length is unknown. Here, the doubler had an option to raise, or cue, to confirm a heart fit.

I disagree, playing on a 5-2 fit when the 5 card player is weak normally produces more tricks than playing in NT thanks to the extra comunication and control.

And I wouldn't rule out that partner has 3 hearts.

[benlessard]

A very important question its MP or IMPS ?

In MP i think its rarely profitable to pull 2Nt to play 3m (especially when partner hand isnt perfectly clear) so we have the understanding that 3m over 2nt is GF. I have really a hard time finding a hand where i bid 2H instead of 2C but with enough shape to pull 2nt

The critical hand is the weak ?5?5

In IMPs it make sense more sense to want to play 3C.

[FrancesHinden]

I don't know if 3C is forcing or non-forcing. In my limit-bidding way I would guess it is non-forcing, but I'm not confident about this at all. I must remember to discuss this! There is possibly some logic to saying that a new suit is forcing if it is below the cue bid and non-forcing if it is above it (1C x P 1H P 2NT P 3D non-forcing as 3C is an easy cue) but I wouldn't spring that on anyone undiscussed.

By the way, I would never pull 2NT to 3H on a bad hand with five hearts. I might not pull with six hearts unless they had good pips (J109xxx say) There are two reasons why this is not the same as pulling a 1NT/2NT opening

i) partner does not have four hearts

ii) partner is far more likely to have a singleton heart than in an uncontested auction. What do you expect partner to do on, say, KQxx A AKQ10x Qxx if not double and bid 2NT over 2H? Even if partner does not have a singleton, it's more likely that partner has a good suit of her own. Surely you would also double and bid NT on AQx xx AKQxxx Kx?

[jdeegan]

Codo, on Mar 3 2008, 08:52 AM, said:

gwnn, on Mar 1 2008, 09:18 PM, said:

xx
QJxx
xx
Kxxxx

3♣ nonforcing ^#$#@%&&@#%^@#$^#$^#

There is the "remote" possibility that you do not need 3 CLub forcing with this hand. You may think about a 3 NT bid instead.

But maybe x,QJxxx,xx,QJxxx is a good example for a forcing 3 Club bid?
Besides all hands, which try to play slam?

Slam. Pleeeze. A 2♥ minimum call opposite a limit (although a big hand)2NT.
Choice of games? Pleeze. 5♣ after partner has said he wants to play NT.
Do I have to spell out EVERYTHING!