[sathyab]

.

Scoring: MP

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You're South. LHO passes, pd opens 1s. A simple overcall of 2h leaves you groping for a convenient bid.

[jdonn]

2NT. Dare I say, wtp?

[Apollo81]

agree, WTP

anything else is too creative for me

[sathyab]

jdonn, on Jul 30 2008, 01:14 PM, said:

2NT. Dare I say, wtp?

The problem is that partner will pass with a lot of balanced hands that may not play well in 2nt with a single stopper. If this is a part score hand, 2s or 3c could easily be a better resting place, all of which is precluded by 2nt.

[pclayton]

sathyab, on Jul 30 2008, 10:48 AM, said:

jdonn, on Jul 30 2008, 01:14 PM, said:

2NT. Dare I say, wtp?

The problem is that partner will pass with a lot of balanced hands that may not play well in 2nt with a single stopper. If this is a part score hand, 2s or 3c could easily be a better resting place, all of which is precluded by 2nt.

Yes but this seems like a normal auction and the field will be facing the same problem. 3♣ is ridiculous and double will get you 3♦ too often. We do have a nice source of tricks so I'm bidding 2N.

Passing is a but of a position but it could work well, especially since pard will pass with heart length of his own.

[sathyab]

pclayton, on Jul 30 2008, 02:04 PM, said:

sathyab, on Jul 30 2008, 10:48 AM, said:

jdonn, on Jul 30 2008, 01:14 PM, said:

2NT. Dare I say, wtp?

The problem is that partner will pass with a lot of balanced hands that may not play well in 2nt with a single stopper. If this is a part score hand, 2s or 3c could easily be a better resting place, all of which is precluded by 2nt.

Yes but this seems like a normal auction and the field will be facing the same problem. 3♣ is ridiculous and double will get you 3♦ too often. We do have a nice source of tricks so I'm bidding 2N.

Passing is a but of a position but it could work well, especially since pard will pass with heart length of his own.

I forgot to mention too that 2nt could easily be wrong-side if overcaller has a suit like AJTxxx and pd had Kx for instance. The only downside to the double is that you will get to play in 3d on a 4-3 fit when pd bids a 4-card Diamond suit over your X. But if he bids 2s, 2nt or 3c it could all work out better.

As an aside many play 2nt as conventional in this situation showing a LR in spades and they distinguish that from an immediate cue, not quite sure of all the details. How do they cope with such hands, I wonder.

[jdonn]

The fact that it may not work out well does not change that it is the only reasonable bid and is completely descriptive.

[cherdano]

sathyab, on Jul 30 2008, 01:16 PM, said:

As an aside many play 2nt as conventional in this situation showing a LR in spades and they distinguish that from an immediate cue, not quite sure of all the details. How do they cope with such hands, I wonder.

They overbid (3♣).

[gnasher]

sathyab, on Jul 30 2008, 08:16 PM, said:

As an aside many play 2nt as conventional in this situation showing a LR in spades and they distinguish that from an immediate cue, not quite sure of all the details. How do they cope with such hands, I wonder.

I bid 3NT, and then blame the result on my partner, for making me play the methods. My partners never have this hand - that's why they know it's OK to play 2NT as artificial.

[gnasher]

Jlall, on Jul 30 2008, 11:05 PM, said:

If you play 2N as a raise though then bid 3C not 3N pls.

3♣ will work very well if partner bids 3NT over it with ♥Kx, but it also increases the risk of our getting too high. I don't think that 3♣-3♥-3NT shows any more doubt about the heart stop than a direct 3NT, but it does introduce the possibility of playing 5♣ or higher. A direct 3NT still shows a balanced hand (especially given that 2NT is unavailable), so partner should still convert to 4♠ when he has six.

Segal and Robson suggested another approach with this type of hand: pass, wait for partner to double, and then cue bid, "showing exactly this sort of hand". I think no more of this suggestion now than I did when I first read it.

Actually, I'm not sure why I'm discussing the best way to bid in this situation. In the long term it's probably better to try to get a poor score, blame it on the methods, and use that as an argument for reintroducing a natural 2NT.

[Edmunte1]

Playing 2Nt as invite+ with 4+ trumps, i'll double with this hand, and bid 2NT over 2♠

[gnasher]

Quote

Gnasher, I would love to get to 5C opposite a stiff heart. I'm not sure why you're scared of getting too high after 3C then 3N but not after a direct 3N. To me they don't show different strengths.

Yes, I think they show the same strength, but for this to be close to a game force I really need ♥Q to be pulling its weight, which it will do in 3NT but probably won't in 5♣.

I agree that opposite many hands with a singleton heart I'd prefer to be in 5♣, but for us to be able to stop there partner has to play me for a working 7-count. If we agree that he's going to cater for this, we mess up our slam-bidding.

This comes back to the fundamental problem - we're trying to squeeze three hand-types into two bids. Your answer is to overload 3♣, mine to overload 3NT, Segal's to overload pass; the best answer is to not have the problem in the first place.

[Apollo81]

Jlall, on Jul 30 2008, 06:05 PM, said:

2N, yes this hand is why I don't play 2N as a raise. If you play 2N as a raise though then bid 3C not 3N pls.

I'd double if playing this.

[kenrexford]

This is really tough for me, for two reasons.

1. I play 2NT as a limit raise with 3+ trumps.
2. A 1♠ opening could be crap. This hand is ugly unless partner has something nice. With 1NT upgrades on 14-counts frequent, this could be a mess.

So, for me, 3♣ seems a bit rich, although understandable if the opening style is not so aggressive and if upgrades are not frequent.

I would double, as this seems to be the least of all evils. I'm undecided as to whether Opener should react aggressively, in which case I should pass 2♠ or 3♦, or whether I owe partner another call after those possible rebids.

[gnasher]

Jlall, on Jul 31 2008, 04:07 PM, said:

So if I understand you correctly, you're worried that if your HQ is not working and partner has a club fit that you will get to a bad slam too often?

Not quite. I'm worried that if my partner has to cater for my having this hand, our bidding will be less effective on the deals where I actually have a 3♣ bid. By bidding 3NT on all the hands where I'd like to bid 2NT, I limit the pollution to one sequence, albeit causing more harm to that one sequence.

I was wrong earlier when I said that 3♣ and 3NT showed the same strength. Playing 2NT as artificial, I think 3NT should have a lower limit than 3♣.

[SoTired]

After 1S, 2H, we have sound knowledge of what Dbl, 2S, 3C, 3D and 3H mean. So let's pour all our invite+ hands into one bid: 2N. We define that as an invitational hand with not a clear-cut suit.

Opener responds by bidding the cheapest suit in which opener will NOT accept an invitation in. This solves some of our problems. But it allows us to make a bid with either clubs or diams or quasi-heart stoppers.