[DJNeill]

Hi all,
If you play a 12-14 NT 5-card major natural system, you open a minor with 15-17 balanced. Say you have no special opening (Mexican, or using a specific minor as default) for 18-19 balanced, so that must be tucked in with the natural minor opening.

In answering these questions, you may play any treatment you want, and add comments about MP/IMP or vul, if necessary.

As South, on the auction:
South West North East
1C 1D 1S 2D
?

what would you rebid on these hands?

(S-H-D-C order)

a) Axx Kxxx x KJTxx

b) AQx KQx xxx AQxx

c) Axxx Qxx xx AKQx

d) Kxx Jxx AKJ Axxx

e) Qx Axx KQxx AJxx

f) x AQJ xxx KQJxxx

g) Axx KQJ KJx ATxx

h) Ax KQJx KJx ATxx

i) x QJxx AKx KQJxx

j) x AQx Kx AQJxxxx

k) x AKQ Kx AQJxxx

l) xxx Axxx KQx AQx


Thanks,
Dan

[Free]

weak NT doesn't work very well with 5 card Majors...

[Cascade]

[quote name='DJNeill' date='Apr 11 2004, 03:21 PM'] Hi all,
If you play a 12-14 NT 5-card major natural system, you open a minor with 15-17 balanced. Say you have no special opening (Mexican, or using a specific minor as default) for 18-19 balanced, so that must be tucked in with the natural minor opening.

In answering these questions, you may play any treatment you want, and add comments about MP/IMP or vul, if necessary.

As South, on the auction:
South West North East
1C 1D 1S 2D
?

what would you rebid on these hands?






Thanks,
Dan [/quote]
I do not play weak NT with five-card majors however I rebid as follows:

[quote]a) Axx  Kxxx  x  KJTxx
[/quote]

I make a takeout double with this hand suggesting hearts and spade tolerance. I could be a big balanced hand without a diamond stopper.

[quote] AQx  KQx  xxx  AQxx[/quote]

Double see above comment.

[quote]c) Axxx  Qxx  xx  AKQx[/quote]

2[sp] with such a pure hand - nothing wasted in the opponent's suit I would object to an upgrade to 3[sp].

[quote]d) Kxx  Jxx  AKJ  Axxx[/quote]

Pass If partner cannot bid again I do not mind defending part-scores with strong balanced hands

[quote]e) Qx  Axx  KQxx  AJxx[/quote]

Pass even happier to defend if partner cannot bid again.

[quote]f) x  AQJ  xxx  KQJxxx[/quote]

2NT Lebensohl showing weakish hand with six clubs

[quote]g) Axx  KQJ  KJx  ATxx[/quote]

Double then bid 3NT if partner does not show five spades by rebidding them or bidding some number of hearts. If partner does show spades I will show some support.

[quote]h) Ax  KQJx  KJx  ATxx[/quote]

Double and then bid 3NT if partner does not show hearts.

[quote]i) x  QJxx  AKx  KQJxx[/quote]

2[he] double would show some spade tolerance. I would make this bid with a slightly weaker hand too.

[quote]j) x  AQx  Kx  AQJxxxx[/quote]

3[cl] showing an invitational hand 16-18 or so with six clubs. The seventh club is a bonus but not quite good enough for stronger action IMO.

[quote]k) x  AKQ  Kx  AQJxxx[/quote]

hmm only 12 cards.

Double then 3[cl] or 3NT depending on the auction.

l) xxx Axxx KQx AQx

I don't have this problem.

I would be happy to pass with so much wasted in their suit. If partner bids again I am well placed to take further action.

[luke warm]

i disagree with free's and cascade's comments about weak nt and 5 card majors... it seems to work quite well... anyway, that's just a matter of philosophy, i think...

As South, on the auction:
South West North East
1C 1D 1S 2D
?

a) Axx Kxxx x KJTxx

first of all, i play that a neg dbl by pard shows both majors, so while his 1♠ bid can be made on a 4 card suit, i'd know he didn't have 4 hearts... with this hand i'd bid 2♠... if west passes, we have ways to show strength/support with responder using asking bids

AQx KQx xxx AQxx

2nt, asking partner to bid 3♣... my plan is to bid 3♠...

c) Axxx Qxx xx AKQx

3♦

d) Kxx Jxx AKJ Axxx

3nt

e) Qx Axx KQxx AJxx

3nt

f) x AQJ xxx KQJxxx

3♣

g) Axx KQJ KJx ATxx

double then 3nt over 3♣... if pard bids 3♠ i'd go to 4

h) Ax KQJx KJx ATxx

double then 3nt over anything

i) x QJxx AKx KQJxx

2♥ then probably 3nt

j) x AQx Kx AQJxxxx

4♣

k) x AKQ Kx AQJxxx

4♣

l) xxx Axxx KQx AQx

double then 2nt over 2♠ if possible

[1eyedjack]

I agree with Lukewarm and Cascade re. marrying 5 card majors in a weak NT.
But I go further and open 1NT with 5M332 and 12-14. Not the most popular of treatments and it doesn't always work (no method does). But it takes the pressure off the forcing NT continuations and for all the theoretical weaknesses it does not seem to cost. I usually play in IMP events, mind.

[mishovnbg]

1eyedjack, on Apr 12 2004, 11:12 AM, said:

I agree with Lukewarm and Cascade re. marrying 5 card majors in a weak NT.
But I go further and open 1NT with 5M332 and 12-14. Not the most popular of treatments and it doesn't always work (no method does). But it takes the pressure off the forcing NT continuations and for all the theoretical weaknesses it does not seem to cost. I usually play in IMP events, mind.

I agree too. When I play with Boian(PPilot) weak NT with very wide range (11)12-14(15) we include with success 5 majors there. This allow to use 1NT response as relay and special way of transfering or not suits, depend of hand. You can see this way posted here:
http://bridgebase.lunarpages.com/~bridge2/...indpost&p=15461

Spoiler

----------------------------------------------------------

Misho

[pbleighton]

I disagree with those who think 5cM and weak NT are a bad combination. The weakness of 5cM is the badly defined 1m bids, and the weak NT minimizes them, and transforms what would otherwise be the worst bids in the system (highly susceptible to interference as opps can have juice, can be difficult/dangerous to rebid after interference) and turns them into an offensive weapon.

It's true that opening strong balanced hands 1m can create rebid problems, too, which I think is the point of Dan's excellent post, but the 1m/balanced hands (not including 18-19) are only half as frequent as with strong NT, and they are a little less likely to be interfered with, due to the opps having less juice on average.

I agree with those who open 5M332 1NT.

Peter

[CharlieS]

Five card majors and a weak NT are incompatable? Gee, tell that to Edgar Kaplin and Alfred Sheinwold, who developed and played a similar system in the late 1950's and early 1960's. What IS incompatable is four card majors and a strong nt. Try playing acol under these conditions!

[csdenmark]

CharlieS, on Apr 13 2004, 10:57 PM, said:

Five card majors and a weak NT are incompatable?  Gee, tell that to Edgar Kaplin and Alfred Sheinwold, who developed and played a similar system in the late 1950's and early 1960's.  What IS incompatable is four card majors and a strong nt.  Try playing acol under these conditions!

Right Charlie - KS also looks very good to me. As a proponent of strong club systems I often wonder why it is so simple to handle KS. Looks like you with the strong openings and narrow bid limits have something like you are a step ahead of the 1♣ opening in fx. Precision.

I normally dont pay much attention to the quick trick openings - which might be lighter openings. Maybe the secrecy of the system is the players - seems much disciplined when playing KS.

[EricK]

CharlieS, on Apr 13 2004, 08:57 PM, said:

Five card majors and a weak NT are incompatable? Gee, tell that to Edgar Kaplin and Alfred Sheinwold, who developed and played a similar system in the late 1950's and early 1960's. What IS incompatable is four card majors and a strong nt. Try playing acol under these conditions!

Don't the Hacketts play 4 card majors and a strong(ish) NT (14-16)?

They do alright.

Eric

[the hog]

Don't the Hacketts play 4 card majors and a strong(ish) NT (14-16)?

Sort of. They only open 4 card Ms with weak hands, (10-13), and these can be canape.
However 5 card Ms, weak NT works well. Agree with the monocled one that 5332 with 5M in 12-14 range should also be opened 1N.

[EricK]

The_Hog, on Apr 14 2004, 02:53 AM, said:

Don't the Hacketts play 4 card majors and a strong(ish) NT (14-16)?

Sort of. They only open 4 card Ms with weak hands, (10-13), and these can be canape.
However 5 card Ms, weak NT works well. Agree with the monocled one that 5332 with 5M in 12-14 range should also be opened 1N.

Thanks for clarifying that.

Even so, as long as your 2/1 bids are kept fairly strong (eg 11+) so 2NT rebid can show 12-13, I don't see too much problem with playing true 4 card majors (non-canape) and a 14-16 NT. Certainly not enough to call them incompatible.

Eric

[the hog]

EricK, on Apr 14 2004, 03:50 PM, said:

The_Hog, on Apr 14 2004, 02:53 AM, said:

Don't the Hacketts play 4 card majors and a strong(ish) NT (14-16)?

Sort of. They only open 4 card Ms with weak hands, (10-13), and these can be canape.
However 5 card Ms, weak NT works well. Agree with the monocled one that 5332 with 5M in 12-14 range should also be opened 1N.

Thanks for clarifying that.

Even so, as long as your 2/1 bids are kept fairly strong (eg 11+) so 2NT rebid can show 12-13, I don't see too much problem with playing true 4 card majors (non-canape) and a 14-16 NT. Certainly not enough to call them incompatible.

Eric

I should have added the Hacketts play a semi forcing NT to 1M - up to about
11(-12). Their 2/1 is GF with one exception - 2C over 1M which can also be a 9-11 3 card raise.

Also because of the style they play 1C 1? 1S shows a good hand, else would have opened 1S.

Cheers
Ron

[badderzboy]

When playing ACOL with 4 Card majors, by bidding up the line with 4-4 then over 90% of the time you do have a 5 Card major or a balanced hand with a NT rebid.

As a rule of thumb I compete pre-emptively as though partner has 5 anyway as per Robson/Seagal.

Steve

[Trpltrbl]

I play 10-12 NT and 12-14 NT, depending on seat and Vul. And I open this with any 5 card major, that's big part of the weak NT. I f you going to play wk NT but you won't open it with a 5 card major why even play it ? And as for the hands you gave, most of them you can handle very well with Support X. And if you can't handle simple hands like that, maybe weak NT not something for you.

Mike

[mikl_plkcc]

a) Axx Kxxx x KJTxx
Double. Forces partner to choose a suit. Then passes any response.

b) AQx KQx xxx AQxx
Double. Then correct 2H to 2S and raise any other responses.

c) Axxx Qxx xx AKQx
Bid 3D. It shows invitational or better in S.

d) Kxx Jxx AKJ Axxx
Bid 2NT. It shows invitational hand, no fit, and stopper.

e) Qx Axx KQxx AJxx
Pass. We don't have a major suit fit and happy to set their 2D.

f) x AQJ xxx KQJxxx
Bid 3C. Shows strong, single suited C.

g) Axx KQJ KJx ATxx
Bid 3NT, to play.

h) Ax KQJx KJx ATxx
Bid 3NT, to play.

i) x QJxx AKx KQJxx
Bid 2NT.

j) x AQx Kx AQJxxxx
Bid 3C.

k) x AKQ Kx AQJxxxx
Bid 3C.

l) xxx Axxx KQx AQx
Bid 2NT.

[bluenikki]

CharlieS, on 2004-April-13, 14:57, said:

Five card majors and a weak NT are incompatable? Gee, tell that to Edgar Kaplin and Alfred Sheinwold, who developed and played a similar system in the late 1950's and early 1960's. What IS incompatable is four card majors and a strong nt. Try playing acol under these conditions!

There are still K-S players. But the inescapable problem hand, 5332 17-count, is something weak nt players just have to live with.

Just as 5-card major players have to live with never playing a 4-3 in opener's strong 4-card major at the 2-level.

[awm]

mikl_plkcc, on 2025-March-08, 17:59, said:

f) x AQJ xxx KQJxxx
Bid 3C. Shows strong, single suited C.
j) x AQx Kx AQJxxxx
Bid 3C.
k) x AKQ Kx AQJxxxx
Bid 3C.

How does partner know what to do here? The first hand you just want to play 3♣ most of the time, the second hand you'd be happy to hear partner make another call, and the third hand you have an absolute game force.

[mikl_plkcc]

None of them is a game force for me. A minor suit game needs 29 total points. Every one can be passed if there is a complete misfit and no stopper, and the partner should bid 3NT if he holds at least 1.5 stoppers in all cases.

[P_Marlowe]

mikl_plkcc, on 2025-March-08, 17:59, said:

a) Axx Kxxx x KJTxx
Double. Forces partner to choose a suit. Then passes any response.

b) AQx KQx xxx AQxx
Double. Then correct 2H to 2S and raise any other responses.

c) Axxx Qxx xx AKQx
Bid 3D. It shows invitational or better in S.

d) Kxx Jxx AKJ Axxx
Bid 2NT. It shows invitational hand, no fit, and stopper.

e) Qx Axx KQxx AJxx
Pass. We don't have a major suit fit and happy to set their 2D.

f) x AQJ xxx KQJxxx
Bid 3C. Shows strong, single suited C.

g) Axx KQJ KJx ATxx
Bid 3NT, to play.

h) Ax KQJx KJx ATxx
Bid 3NT, to play.

i) x QJxx AKx KQJxx
Bid 2NT.

j) x AQx Kx AQJxxxx
Bid 3C.

k) x AKQ Kx AQJxxxx
Bid 3C.

l) xxx Axxx KQx AQx
Bid 2NT.

Most would play X by opener as support, i.e. showing exactly 3 spades, this is the bid you
make on all hands except e,f,h,i,j,k.

e) Pass, see what p does do, if he reopens with a X, pass again, you have no idea, if
you have a major suit fit, p could have a 6 carder.

f) A Lebensohl agreement of 2NT helps you differentiate between a good 3C and a bad 3C,
this looks like a bad 3C to me, we only have 13HCP.

h) either bid 3NT direct, or delayed via 2NT, depending on your Lebensohl agreement, we
play slow showes. The slow route gives you the chance of finding a 4-4 in hearts.

i) what is wrong with 2H, did p deny a 4 card heart suit?

j) This starts to look like a good 3C bid to me, see f)

k) same as j), actually it is a gf, you would start with the slower route and take it from
there.