[helene_t]

Last wednesday my partner had

---

I opened 1♣, he 1♠ (we play 0-5 HCP jump shifts), I passed a 2♦ overcall. Now he had to make spades trump in a forcing way. Since he was not sure if 3♠ would be forcing, he bid 3♦, and it never occured to me that he might have this spade suit. My suggestion is either to play 3♠ immediatelt after the overcall forcing (meaning that he would have to pass with 6-7 HCP, 2♠ showing 8-11), or first to double 2♦ (which happens to be safe here because he has diamonds length, but suppose he hadn't). What is your recomendation?

[Free]

Since you didn't double, you either have ♦ opposition or no 4♥/3♠ imo. So as an alternative, 3♥ should be forcing, shows 5+♠ and the little lie in ♥ won't be punished. But 3♦ is the best bid imo: shows GF hand, and if he rebids ♠ he shows slam interest.

If however your pass doesn't denie 3♠ and 4♥, I guess 3♦ is still clear enough, since he can ALWAYS repeat his ♠s. 3♠ is still limit imo. At this moment, there's only 1 contract I want to play, and that's something in Spades, I could even play 4♠ on my own if p has void.

Too bad you didn't mention the Vulnerability and scoring, otherwise a Double might make sence as well when NV vs V. In most cases however I don't want to let them in 2♦*...

Btw, you don't give us the rest of the auction, but you say you could never imagine that p had this ♠ suit. I think there's no problem up to 3♦, but perhaps the continuation might be wrong. If you bid 3♠ after the 3♦, you should show a doubleton support, and partner can start cuebidding for slam. If you bid something else and partner bids 4♠ he shows slam interest with long ♠s imo.

[flytoox]

I think 3d followed by 3s(if possible) should tell this hand. The last way is to jump to 6s. when opener cannt take any action over 2d, 6s should be the best chance.

[luis]

Both 3d or dbl seem to be good options. I wonder what can go wrong after 3d ?

[paulg]

If you play weak jump shifts then you have the system to bid this system ... but perhaps did not realise

If 1♣-2♠ is weak, then

1♣-1♠-2♣-2♠ must be constructive and invitational

and

1♣-1♠-2♣-3♠ will be natural and forcing.

The same principle would apply to the competitive sequence here.

Regards

Paul

[mishovnbg]

cardsharp, on May 7 2004, 08:17 PM, said:

If you play weak jump shifts then you have the system to bid this system ... but perhaps did not realise

If 1♣-2♠ is weak, then

1♣-1♠-2♣-2♠ must be constructive and invitational

and

1♣-1♠-2♣-3♠ will be natural and forcing.

The same principle would apply to the competitive sequence here.

Regards

Paul

Hi Paul!

You can't play normally 2♠ later bid as inv, because you can have sign off hand with 5 good ♠ without ♣. With inv hand you can simple bid 2♦, like almost all good players.

You can't play 3♠ as GF rebid, because despite you play wjs, you still can have inv hand with 6♠ - popular meaning of 3♠ rebid.

With 1 suited ♠ hand, you can bid 2♦ as RF and rebid 3♠ as GF, because you didn't bid it early. Main rule is: more bids show more strength for same rebid, because with stronger hand you normally like to receive more info for final decision.

Hi helene_t!

Any usage of convention to improve bidding, make it worse in other cases. Usage of wjs make bidding with sjs hands worse, like in your example. Only way to show such hand is to pass through other forcing bid and rebid ♠ later - in your example 3♦, followed by rebidding ♠. It is not good bidding, but is cost of usage of weak jump shifts - world is not perfect .

Misho

[paulg]

mishovnbg, on May 9 2004, 09:21 AM, said:

cardsharp, on May 7 2004, 08:17 PM, said:

If you play weak jump shifts then you have the system to bid this system ... but perhaps did not realise

If 1♣-2♠ is weak, then

1♣-1♠-2♣-2♠ must be constructive and invitational

and

1♣-1♠-2♣-3♠ will be natural and forcing.

The same principle would apply to the competitive sequence here.

Regards

Paul

Hi Paul!

You can't play normally 2♠ later bid as inv, because you can have sign off hand with 5 good ♠ without ♣. With inv hand you can simple bid 2♦, like almost all good players.

This is getting a little deep, but partner will normally have 6♣ or a singleton ♠ so there is no need to show this hand. The only problem hand are 2245 shape hands which partner will often open or rebid NT.

Quote

You can't play 3♠ as GF rebid, because despite you play wjs, you still can have inv hand with 6♠ - popular meaning of 3♠ rebid.

This is true as you cannot show this hand with 2♠ ... but I can so 3♠ can be GF for me.

Quote

With 1 suited ♠ hand, you can bid 2♦ as RF and rebid 3♠ as GF, because you didn't bid it early. Main rule is: more bids show more strength for same rebid, because with stronger hand you normally like to receive more info for final decision.

Completely agree.

Paul

[bearmum]

helene_t, on May 7 2004, 11:46 PM, said:

Last wednesday my partner had

Dealer: ????? Vul: ???? Scoring: Unknown

♠ AKQTxxx ♥ Qxx ♦ Axx ♣

I opened 1♣, he 1♠ (we play 0-5 HCP jump shifts), I passed a 2♦ overcall. Now he had to make spades trump in a forcing way. Since he was not sure if 3♠  would be forcing, he bid 3♦, and it never occured to me that he might have this spade suit. My suggestion is either to play 3♠ immediatelt after the overcall forcing (meaning that he would have to pass with 6-7 HCP, 2♠ showing 8-11), or first to double 2♦ (which happens to be safe here because he has diamonds length, but suppose he hadn't). What is your recomendation?

This hand is a CLASSIC example why I HATE it if any partner asks me to play WJS and 0-5 WJ means you ONLY know P has 6+ points

Then again how many points does your PASS of 2D promise??

with your pards hand I would bid 4♠ because I think that you have MINIMUM hand with clubs(probably 5 of them) and hope I can make 4♠

[Fluffy]

cardsharp, on May 9 2004, 08:48 AM, said:

mishovnbg, on May 9 2004, 09:21 AM, said:

cardsharp, on May 7 2004, 08:17 PM, said:

If you play weak jump shifts then you have the system to bid this system ... but perhaps did not realise

If 1♣-2♠ is weak, then

1♣-1♠-2♣-2♠ must be constructive and invitational

and

1♣-1♠-2♣-3♠ will be natural and forcing.

The same principle would apply to the competitive sequence here.

Regards

Paul

Hi Paul!

You can't play normally 2♠ later bid as inv, because you can have sign off hand with 5 good ♠ without ♣. With inv hand you can simple bid 2♦, like almost all good players.

This is getting a little deep, but partner will normally have 6♣ or a singleton ♠ so there is no need to show this hand. The only problem hand are 2245 shape hands which partner will often open or rebid NT.

Hey Misho and Paul!

I agree a bit with you both, but in the end with none

rebiding a 5 ard suit agains a 1-suiter or 2-suiter is the kind of thing that makes me hate my partner, ok it also works, but I don´t apreciate it.

Still playing 3♠ as GF on this sequence makes me feel sick:

WJS are meant to be obstructive: that is to put pressure on opponents eating bidding space when they can maybe have a GAME, so it comes that WJS are played 3-6 HCP or so. Invitational are about 10 what happens with the ones in the middle?: just easy: rebid 2♠, and as Misho says, you can make a forcing bid before ebid your suit when you are too strong. That leaves 3♠ for limit.

[helene_t]

Well, maybe I should elaborate a little: my pass on 2♦ shows a maximum of about 15 HCP. We do not play any advanced defence against sandwich interference except for support doubles. So pass denies a 3-card spades.
After my 3NT rebid, partner still considered his hand too good for 4♠, so he bid 4♦ (I'm not sure what that's suposed to mean), I 6♣.
One option would be to play 2♠ as 8-11 and then pass with 6-7. Unfortunately, this was matchpoints.
I'm not sure if strong jump shifts would solve this problem, I just mentioned it to explain why partner bid 1♠. Whether you play a jump shift as 0-5 or as strong, you can't jump with all strong hands so you still have to distinguish between 6-9, 10-11 and 12+ after a normal shift. But maybe strong jump shifts can be played in way that solves this problem. Mike Lawrence says in his 2-o-1 workbook "never jump unless you have a rebid", but it may be possible to combine that with "never refrain from jumping unless you have a rebid".
If a jump shift is 4-7 or 9-11, it would solve this problem, though.

[flytoox]

helene_t, on May 11 2004, 06:15 AM, said:

Well, maybe I should elaborate a little: my pass on 2♦ shows a maximum of about 15 HCP. We do not play any advanced defence against sandwich interference except for support doubles. So pass denies a 3-card spades.
After my 3NT rebid, partner still considered his hand too good for 4♠, so he bid 4♦ (I'm not sure what that's suposed to mean), I 6♣.
One option would be to play 2♠ as 8-11 and then pass with 6-7. Unfortunately, this was matchpoints.
I'm not sure if strong jump shifts would solve this problem, I just mentioned it to explain why partner bid 1♠. Whether you play a jump shift as 0-5 or as strong, you can't jump with all strong hands so you still have to distinguish between 6-9, 10-11 and 12+ after a normal shift. But maybe strong jump shifts can be played in way that solves this problem. Mike Lawrence says in his 2-o-1 workbook "never jump unless you have a rebid", but it may be possible to combine that with "never refrain from jumping unless you have a rebid".
If a jump shift is 4-7 or 9-11, it would solve this problem, though.

if u have 15hcp, opening 1c, then u must have a shape hand. Over 2d, pass DOES NOT show a maximum hand, but show a hand without characteristics. If u pass then bid 3N then you should have min hand with at most 1 spade. This is because you can show 3 or 4 spades after 2d by bi dding 2s or dbl(if u play spt dbl), so after pd's 3d, 3s should show 2 spade spt, so 3N should show 1 sapde or 2 small spade. you didnt bid 3c after 2d, so your hand is likley to be 1345.

After 3D, 4S has already showed slam interest i think. 4D should show D control. I think you should bid 4H if you have h control, leaving pd chance to stay at 4S without losing change to go further if he really wants.

[Trpltrbl]

3♦ is GF, after pd's rebid, I'll bid ♠ again, setting up slam interest.
Don't see a problem.

Mike