[jdaming]

You hold:

Scoring: IMP

---

Bidding goes:
1♥ - P - 2♦ - P
????

Playing "2/1" what do you bid?

What is the most common style these days?

I will give the responders hand later and will ask more questions

[CSGibson]

Most common style is to rebid the major as a catchall. I rebid 2N as a catchall, showing a flat hand either in the 12-14 HCP range, or in the 18-19 HCP range.

[whereagles]

I find the common style of rebidding 2NT on 12-14 or 18-19 rather unplayable in the long term. Prefer 2♥ catch-all.

[fromageGB]

I don't know what the most common style is, but I think it important to have some way of showing your strength. For me, I need 15/16 to go above the level of 2 of my major, so I now rebid 2♥, which does not show extra length. If partner wants to find out, he will rebid 2NT to let me bid out my shape, in this case 3NT.

Interestingly, while others mention bidding 2NT with 2-way strengths, I find it works the other way. I bid 2♥ if 17+, and then show life on the next round.

[mtvesuvius]

2♥ is my catchall. I have the other suits stopped, but IMO this is too weak for a 2NT rebid (which I play as Good 12-15), which certainly shouldn't be 2 way. I'll try 2♥, give me some more spots and I'll bid 2NT.

[Phil]

2♥. Need a 4th trump with a hand this weak to raise.

[jdonn]

I don't understand the comments about 2NT as a catchall showing balanced hands. That means it's natural, not a catchall. Here we are balanced with the unbid suits stopped so unless I am playing 2NT shows extras (which I do with one person) then I bid 2NT.

[P_Marlowe]

2H, since for me 2NT would show a strong NT.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[zasanya]

P_Marlowe, on Mar 8 2009, 05:33 PM, said:

2H, since for me 2NT would show a strong NT.

With kind regards
Marlowe

Didnt quite understand this.The system given is 2/1 and surely that means strong No trump?Is it that you do not open 1NT with a 5 card major?
For others why should 2NT require anything other than 12-14; remaining 2 suits stopped and a flat shape??What is the danger?

[mike777]

jdaming, on Mar 8 2009, 12:12 AM, said:

You hold:

Dealer: South Vul: Both Scoring: IMP

♠ Q76 ♥ AK965 ♦ 753 ♣ KT

Bidding goes:
1♥ - P - 2♦ - P
????

Playing "2/1" what do you bid?

What is the most common style these days?

I will give the responders hand later and will ask more questions

I would rebid 2nt

that means partner thinks I have a balanced 11-13 pt hand with 5 hearts and no decent 4 card second suit.

Not perfect but I choose tolive with it.

[P_Marlowe]

zasanya, on Mar 9 2009, 01:53 AM, said:

P_Marlowe, on Mar 8 2009, 05:33 PM, said:

2H, since for me 2NT would show a strong NT.

With kind regards
Marlowe

Didnt quite understand this.The system given is 2/1 and surely that means strong No trump?Is it that you do not open 1NT with a 5 card major?
For others why should 2NT require anything other than 12-14; remaining 2 suits stopped and a flat shape??What is the danger?

We dont open 1NT with a 5 card major.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Codo]

As the voting showed, both styles have their followers. In 2/1 you can play it both ways.

I prefer 2 ♥ , but just because I am so used to it from the 10 years of SEF and other systems like wj2005 where 2/1 is not always really gameforcing.

In a real 2/1 GF system I guess that 2 NT is the much better bid.

[fromageGB]

zasanya, on Mar 9 2009, 07:53 AM, said:

For others why should 2NT require anything other than 12-14; remaining 2 suits stopped and a flat shape??What is the danger?

There is no reason why you can't say it is 12-14. But then, what do you do with 15/16 (assuming that you do not normally open 1NT with a 5 card major)? And what do you do with 17+? If these bid 2NT as well, then partner does not have a clue how strong you are, and when he bids 3NT it is risky for you to go on.

If you bid jump 3NT with some of these ranges, then again you cannot distinguish between the 2 of the 3 ranges that have the same bid. Bidding 3NT is a bad idea anyway, as now there is no room for partner to show 3 hearts short of bidding game.

If you accept the above as problems, then you can avoid them by assigning just one range to the 2NT rebid, and do something else with the others. My partnerships assign 15/16 to the 2NT rebid. For the others we just rebid 2♥. This does not show 6 cards. It is game forcing, so if partner wants to know if it is 6 he can rebid something (commonly 2NT) and then we can repeat the hearts to show 6. On the current hand I would over his 2NT raise to 3NT, bidding my shape. This shows 12-14. If I had 17+ I would bid 4♣, which can be what you wish, eg Gerber, but for us is a general asking bid.

So there is no danger in rebidding 2NT : you just have to have methods to describe a variety of hands with as much accuracy as you can.

[ArtK78]

I am in a game forcing auction. I have a balanced hand with values in every other suit than partner's suit.

I bid 2NT.

What am I missing?

[Stephen Tu]

Quote

There is no reason why you can't say it is 12-14. But then, what do you do with 15/16 (assuming that you do not normally open 1NT with a 5 card major)? And what do you do with 17+? If these bid 2NT as well, then partner does not have a clue how strong you are, and when he bids 3NT it is risky for you to go on.

It's not that difficult. It's common to play 2nt = 12-15/18-19.
So with 16-17, jump to 3nt, partner with appropriate hand can go on.
(One can of course play 12-14 2nt, 15-17 3nt, but I prefer a tighter range for 3nt, and don't find you miss too many good slams rebid 2nt with 15)
With 18-19, bid 2nt, if partner signs off in game try again with 4nt, again partner
has a reasonable range to work with.

You won't go too far wrong that often this way. I don't know why whereagles considers this unplayable. Perhaps he could explain why he feels this way.

[oldman5757]

ArtK78, on Mar 9 2009, 12:54 PM, said:

I am in a game forcing auction.  I have a balanced hand with values in every other suit than partner's suit.

I bid 2NT.

What am I missing?

You're not missing anything. It's just a matter of partnership agreement. I think the default in 2/1 is that 2♥ shows a balanced minimum without a good 4 card second suit, and no extra ♥ length, but playing 2NT as minimum/maximum, or playing it as showing 15-17, as I prefer, are all fine with me, as long as I know that's the way you or anyone else plays it.

IMHO, it's just one of the MANY areas in 2/1 that's not well defined, so you have to agree on it, and it's the very first question I ask in any new 2/1 partnership.

[the hog]

ArtK78, on Mar 10 2009, 12:54 AM, said:

I am in a game forcing auction. I have a balanced hand with values in every other suit than partner's suit.

I bid 2NT.

What am I missing?

2NT is 2 bids higher than 2H. Over 2H you can bid 2S or 2NT as an artificail ask or relay. Lower and more efficient than over 2NT.

[the hog]

Stephen Tu, on Mar 10 2009, 01:09 AM, said:

Quote

There is no reason why you can't say it is 12-14. But then, what do you do with 15/16 (assuming that you do not normally open 1NT with a 5 card major)? And what do you do with 17+? If these bid 2NT as well, then partner does not have a clue how strong you are, and when he bids 3NT it is risky for you to go on.

It's not that difficult. It's common to play 2nt = 12-15/18-19.
So with 16-17, jump to 3nt, partner with appropriate hand can go on.
(One can of course play 12-14 2nt, 15-17 3nt, but I prefer a tighter range for 3nt, and don't find you miss too many good slams rebid 2nt with 15)
With 18-19, bid 2nt, if partner signs off in game try again with 4nt, again partner
has a reasonable range to work with.

You won't go too far wrong that often this way. I don't know why whereagles considers this unplayable. Perhaps he could explain why he feels this way.

With a balanced 15-17 don't most people in the modern world open 1NT?

[Stephen Tu]

Quote

With a balanced 15-17 don't most people in the modern world open 1NT?

- Some of us are playing 12-14 opening NTs, and don't like being forced to open all 12-14 w/ 5cM with 1nt.
- Even playing strong NT, there are some who use judgement whether to open 1nt or 1M based on suit quality, presence of 3oM, holdings in other suits, etc.
- I was answering someone who asked what you do if you don't open 1nt with 15-16 and a 5cM, read the posts!

Quote

2NT is 2 bids higher than 2H. Over 2H you can bid 2S or 2NT as an artificail ask or relay. Lower and more efficient than over 2NT

- If 2nt is tightly defined, you don't need as much space since hand types are limited
- The more bids you lump into 2H, the more bids you need afterwards to untangle them all.

It's not necessarily more efficient. What hand type would you use 2nt to show in its place?

This is a non-argument. If this was a valid argument, then the logical extension would be that opener should rebid 2h 100% of the time over 2d, no matter what he holds. After all it's "lower and more efficient".

[the hog]

Stephen Tu, on Mar 10 2009, 11:28 AM, said:

Quote

With a balanced 15-17 don't most people in the modern world open 1NT?

- Some of us are playing 12-14 opening NTs, and don't like being forced to open all 12-14 w/ 5cM with 1nt.
- Even playing strong NT, there are some who use judgement whether to open 1nt or 1M based on suit quality, presence of 3oM, holdings in other suits, etc.
- I was answering someone who asked what you do if you don't open 1nt with 15-16 and a 5cM, read the posts!

Quote

2NT is 2 bids higher than 2H. Over 2H you can bid 2S or 2NT as an artificail ask or relay. Lower and more efficient than over 2NT

- If 2nt is tightly defined, you don't need as much space since hand types are limited
- The more bids you lump into 2H, the more bids you need afterwards to untangle them all.

It's not necessarily more efficient. What hand type would you use 2nt to show in its place?

This is a non-argument. If this was a valid argument, then the logical extension would be that opener should rebid 2h 100% of the time over 2d, no matter what he holds. After all it's "lower and more efficient".

Stephen I suggest that it might be useful if YOU learn some basic manners. You might find life a little easier.

As to the second comment, it is hardly a "non argument." Rebidding 2H with most minimums allows you to show other hand types more efficiently. For example bidding 3m shows better than minimum, values. personally I would reserve a 2NT bid for the hand of death or a very strong s/s hand. A 3C relay can clarify which type.