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BTW has any tried just not playing unfav. preempts
I assume that means you bid one level or just pass with those hands.
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Unfavorable preempts
#1
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Posted 2009-March-15, 19:53
#2
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Posted 2009-March-15, 20:36
No. Curious as to why you would even suggest this Mike? For what would you use your 3 level bids? I don't mind conservative unf pre e mpts, but it seems you are losing a lot by not opening AQJT to 7, (or similar), with a 3 bid.
"The King of Hearts a broadsword bears, the Queen of Hearts a rose." W. H. Auden.
#3
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Posted 2009-March-15, 20:45
At least play that your jump opening bids are intermediate.
#4
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Posted 2009-March-15, 20:59
I tried for a while playing no weak twos at vulnerable, with 2M being intermediate instead.
In the long run this seemed like a loser. While it pays to be conservative at unfavorable, the problem is that you really do need to take a bid with something like ♥KQJT9x and out, and if you pass on that hand you may never recover.
In the long run this seemed like a loser. While it pays to be conservative at unfavorable, the problem is that you really do need to take a bid with something like ♥KQJT9x and out, and if you pass on that hand you may never recover.
Adam W. Meyerson
a.k.a. Appeal Without Merit
a.k.a. Appeal Without Merit
#5
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Posted 2009-March-15, 21:01
ty for responses...very interesting...just to repeat I am only discussing red vs white in this thread..
As I said I assumed...that those who never preempt red vs white ...pass or open one bid.
As I said I assumed...that those who never preempt red vs white ...pass or open one bid.
#6
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Posted 2009-March-15, 21:05
The_Hog, on Mar 15 2009, 09:36 PM, said:
No. Curious as to why you would even suggest this Mike? For what would you use your 3 level bids? I don't mind conservative unf pre e mpts, but it seems you are losing a lot by not opening AQJT to 7, (or similar), with a 3 bid.
ty Hog for your response...yes I assume with AQJT..seven vul vs non in this style you are forced to pass, you are bared from bidding wk two or three....
#7
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Posted 2009-March-15, 21:15
Perhaps it is worthwhile to mention that, when playing intermediate twos, the two bids themselves did not hurt our results. We got a few good results and a lot of normal results when they came up; I don't remember any disasters. The problems were always on the "classic preempt" hands. There were actually a number of issues that came up:
(1) The failure to preempt means that we can't play fit non-jumps in a lot of auctions. These are relatively useful, because in an auction like Pass-1♠-2♣-Pass you rather want to bid hearts on both a "weak two in hearts" and a hand with "five hearts and a club fit" but yet what you want partner to do with a minimum and no heart fit is wildly different. Obviously the same problem exists if you were sitting in fourth chair and heard the same auction, but the point is that you were in first chair and the rest of the field doesn't have this issue.
(2) Getting the lead director in can be critical. For example suppose the auction goes Pass-1NT-Pass-3NT and you are sitting there with ♥KQJTxx. How likely are you to get the right lead? I'd say not all that likely. Sure, if you had opened 2♥ you might've gotten doubled or something, but often it is positionally hard to double and you don't rate to go for more than 200 in 2♥X most of the time anyway (assuming partner has a couple tricks).
(3) Sometimes LHO has a preemptive hand also, and getting the first blow in can be huge. For example, say you have a big heart fit and opponents have a big club fit. If you pass the auction might go Pass-3♣-Pass-5♣ and you are selling to 5♣ undoubled. If you open 2♥ then LHO may not even bid (since a jump would show a strong hand) and you may even get 2♥-P-4♥-All Pass.
All of these seemed to happen occasionally when we played the intermediate twos instead of weak, and my feeling is that the combination lost quite a bit more than it wins, even though the intermediate two hands themselves were a small win for the method. We switched back to normal (albeit conservative at unfavorable) weak two bids.
(1) The failure to preempt means that we can't play fit non-jumps in a lot of auctions. These are relatively useful, because in an auction like Pass-1♠-2♣-Pass you rather want to bid hearts on both a "weak two in hearts" and a hand with "five hearts and a club fit" but yet what you want partner to do with a minimum and no heart fit is wildly different. Obviously the same problem exists if you were sitting in fourth chair and heard the same auction, but the point is that you were in first chair and the rest of the field doesn't have this issue.
(2) Getting the lead director in can be critical. For example suppose the auction goes Pass-1NT-Pass-3NT and you are sitting there with ♥KQJTxx. How likely are you to get the right lead? I'd say not all that likely. Sure, if you had opened 2♥ you might've gotten doubled or something, but often it is positionally hard to double and you don't rate to go for more than 200 in 2♥X most of the time anyway (assuming partner has a couple tricks).
(3) Sometimes LHO has a preemptive hand also, and getting the first blow in can be huge. For example, say you have a big heart fit and opponents have a big club fit. If you pass the auction might go Pass-3♣-Pass-5♣ and you are selling to 5♣ undoubled. If you open 2♥ then LHO may not even bid (since a jump would show a strong hand) and you may even get 2♥-P-4♥-All Pass.
All of these seemed to happen occasionally when we played the intermediate twos instead of weak, and my feeling is that the combination lost quite a bit more than it wins, even though the intermediate two hands themselves were a small win for the method. We switched back to normal (albeit conservative at unfavorable) weak two bids.
Adam W. Meyerson
a.k.a. Appeal Without Merit
a.k.a. Appeal Without Merit
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Posted 2009-March-15, 22:17
Interesting observations on the costs and benefits of your experiment. Thanks for sharing.
#9
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Posted 2009-March-15, 22:52
awm, on Mar 15 2009, 10:15 PM, said:
Perhaps it is worthwhile to mention that, when playing intermediate twos, the two bids themselves did not hurt our results. We got a few good results and a lot of normal results when they came up; I don't remember any disasters. The problems were always on the "classic preempt" hands. There were actually a number of issues that came up:
(1) The failure to preempt means that we can't play fit non-jumps in a lot of auctions. These are relatively useful, because in an auction like Pass-1♠-2♣-Pass you rather want to bid hearts on both a "weak two in hearts" and a hand with "five hearts and a club fit" but yet what you want partner to do with a minimum and no heart fit is wildly different. Obviously the same problem exists if you were sitting in fourth chair and heard the same auction, but the point is that you were in first chair and the rest of the field doesn't have this issue.
(2) Getting the lead director in can be critical. For example suppose the auction goes Pass-1NT-Pass-3NT and you are sitting there with ♥KQJTxx. How likely are you to get the right lead? I'd say not all that likely. Sure, if you had opened 2♥ you might've gotten doubled or something, but often it is positionally hard to double and you don't rate to go for more than 200 in 2♥X most of the time anyway (assuming partner has a couple tricks).
(3) Sometimes LHO has a preemptive hand also, and getting the first blow in can be huge. For example, say you have a big heart fit and opponents have a big club fit. If you pass the auction might go Pass-3♣-Pass-5♣ and you are selling to 5♣ undoubled. If you open 2♥ then LHO may not even bid (since a jump would show a strong hand) and you may even get 2♥-P-4♥-All Pass.
All of these seemed to happen occasionally when we played the intermediate twos instead of weak, and my feeling is that the combination lost quite a bit more than it wins, even though the intermediate two hands themselves were a small win for the method. We switched back to normal (albeit conservative at unfavorable) weak two bids.
(1) The failure to preempt means that we can't play fit non-jumps in a lot of auctions. These are relatively useful, because in an auction like Pass-1♠-2♣-Pass you rather want to bid hearts on both a "weak two in hearts" and a hand with "five hearts and a club fit" but yet what you want partner to do with a minimum and no heart fit is wildly different. Obviously the same problem exists if you were sitting in fourth chair and heard the same auction, but the point is that you were in first chair and the rest of the field doesn't have this issue.
(2) Getting the lead director in can be critical. For example suppose the auction goes Pass-1NT-Pass-3NT and you are sitting there with ♥KQJTxx. How likely are you to get the right lead? I'd say not all that likely. Sure, if you had opened 2♥ you might've gotten doubled or something, but often it is positionally hard to double and you don't rate to go for more than 200 in 2♥X most of the time anyway (assuming partner has a couple tricks).
(3) Sometimes LHO has a preemptive hand also, and getting the first blow in can be huge. For example, say you have a big heart fit and opponents have a big club fit. If you pass the auction might go Pass-3♣-Pass-5♣ and you are selling to 5♣ undoubled. If you open 2♥ then LHO may not even bid (since a jump would show a strong hand) and you may even get 2♥-P-4♥-All Pass.
All of these seemed to happen occasionally when we played the intermediate twos instead of weak, and my feeling is that the combination lost quite a bit more than it wins, even though the intermediate two hands themselves were a small win for the method. We switched back to normal (albeit conservative at unfavorable) weak two bids.
1) Agree 100% you are not playing fit nonjumps whatever they are.
2) Agree 100% assume you must pass with KQJTxx vul vs nv for this thread.
3) Agree 100% again assume you must pass with Kqjtxx vul vs nv for this thread.
#10
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Posted 2009-March-16, 04:52
Vulnerability doesn't change the fact that some hands play well in their suit and no other.
If security is a concern, simply open 1 level lower than you usually do. Simple.
If security is a concern, simply open 1 level lower than you usually do. Simple.
#11
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Posted 2009-March-16, 05:48
As someone who does not play weak two bids in most regular partnerships, I have also seen this "problem" come up. Our solution is that we use the Pass - 1♠ - 2♣ - Pass - 2♥ as "I would have bid a weak two" and simply support with support.
As always, the preempt can work both ways. Sometimes opponents are knocked out by a preempt, but...
There are always situations where they bid 3NT without a ♥ stopper which they would have avoided had you bid them. Also in auctions like 1NT - 3NT we can Dbl for a ♠ lead, so partner will try ♥ more often than not if he has no better plan. Or they are pushed into a making game that they wouldn't have found on a "slower" auction.
Giving up unfavourable 3-bids sounds like a bad idea. They can be useful finding 3NT on Hx support and some scattered stoppers.
As always, the preempt can work both ways. Sometimes opponents are knocked out by a preempt, but...
There are always situations where they bid 3NT without a ♥ stopper which they would have avoided had you bid them. Also in auctions like 1NT - 3NT we can Dbl for a ♠ lead, so partner will try ♥ more often than not if he has no better plan. Or they are pushed into a making game that they wouldn't have found on a "slower" auction.
Giving up unfavourable 3-bids sounds like a bad idea. They can be useful finding 3NT on Hx support and some scattered stoppers.
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