[phil_20686]

Q98xx
xx
x
AKJ9x


the auction between you and your partner is
1♦ 1♠
2♥ 3♣
3♠ 4♠
5♦ ?

What does partner have now? Can you be sure of his shape? and what will you bid next?

FYI: 3c was GF, 2n was our only weak bid there. You have no particular agreement about 5d, but your cue bidding methods are first and second equally if you think that is relevant.

[peachy]

Opener has 3-4-5-1, ace or king of diamonds, and about 17HCP.
Responder's hand is more of a mystery to opener. What are your bidding agreements after opener's reverse?

[aguahombre]

actually, opener must have more than the 17-point minimum reverse, but yes 3-4-5-1 is most likely. Responder showed 9+ with the 3C bid, and agreed spades by raising to 4S --and at the same time showed pretty much nothing extra. Opener could have passed 4S, but has extras.

With probably only six working points, I think 5S is plenty, now. With KQxxx xx x Axxxx, I would bid six.

[pooltuna]

phil_20686, on Oct 7 2009, 03:05 PM, said:

Q98xx
xx
x
AKJ9x


the auction between you and your partner is
1♦ 1♠
2♥ 3♣
3♠ 4♠
5♦ ?

What does partner have now? Can you be sure of his shape? and what will you bid next?

FYI: 3c was GF, 2n was our only weak bid there. You have no particular agreement about 5d, but your cue bidding methods are first and second equally if you think that is relevant.

on the auction your partner is showing something near 3451 and consequently your ♣ suit contains a lot of wasted values try to get out for 5♠

[andy_h]

Why didn't I bid 2♠ over 2♥?

[aguahombre]

andy_h, on Oct 7 2009, 11:51 PM, said:

Why didn't I bid 2♠ over 2♥?

because at that point u did not know that your ten hcp were not working points, and 2S would have denied that much strength. both 2S and 2NT (leben) at that juncture are weak bids.

[andy_h]

aguahombre, on Oct 8 2009, 04:11 PM, said:

andy_h, on Oct 7 2009, 11:51 PM, said:

Why didn't I bid 2♠ over 2♥?

because at that point u did not know that your ten hcp were not working points, and 2S would have denied that much strength. both 2S and 2NT (leben) at that juncture are weak bids.

In 'standard' I believe, by rebidding 2M it shows 5+cards and F1.
Not to mention the OP stated their methods and said "2NT (leb) is our only weak bid"

[effervesce]

Why didn't I bid 4♣ over 3♠?

[Cascade]

Can partner be 2=4=5=2 with say ♠ AK and ♣ xx and some extra values?

[phil_20686]

My analysis went as follows

1) Partner needs a minimum of a decent 16 for a reverse, he has shown extra by going past game after partner signed of in 4s.
2) Partner must be 4-5 in the reds as with 5-5 open 1h and with 6-4 he would bid 3d over 3c (unless he is 3-4-6-0.
3) if partner is 5431 would he not bid 5c, rather than 5d? Surely this is critical information for responder to know, as he is unlikely to have both good spades and good clubs? Can partner not try to cater for me having a hand like AKxxx xx xx Qxxx by cuebidding a club shortage?
4) Partner obviously needs something from me that he could not find out from blackwood, ie he needs to know about more than the quality of my trumps.

Surely all of this suggests that partner will be 2452 with no club control?

[phil_20686]

andy_h, on Oct 8 2009, 12:19 AM, said:

aguahombre, on Oct 8 2009, 04:11 PM, said:

andy_h, on Oct 7 2009, 11:51 PM, said:

Why didn't I bid 2♠ over 2♥?

because at that point u did not know that your ten hcp were not working points, and 2S would have denied that much strength. both 2S and 2NT (leben) at that juncture are weak bids.

In 'standard' I believe, by rebidding 2M it shows 5+cards and F1.
Not to mention the OP stated their methods and said "2NT (leb) is our only weak bid"

That is indeed our agreement, but i still agree with 3 clubs. If you dont mention clubs now you might never give partner the tools he needs to vaule a 1453 hand, also, your spades are not that good and 2s surely suggests a good 5 as partner can show spade support over 3c.

Perhaps 2s is better if you expect partner to pattern out.

Tbh i thought the most questionable bid on the auction from responder was 4s - surely there is a reasonable argument that he should bid 4c to confirm his shape and the quality of his clubs.

[gnasher]

Was 3♣ natural, or Fourth-Suit Forcing?

In my world, 3♣ was FSF, 3♠ might have been either 2452 or 3451, and the correct bid over 3♠ was 3NT.

[phil_20686]

FSF is the agreement, but on this auction it always shows nearly always 4 clubs i think, as it denies 4h or 3 diamonds, and if he had 6s he would always bid 2 or 3 spades. Even often with only 5. I could be 5323 with poor clubs and poor spades. Something like Qxxxx Kxx Kx xxx.

[andy_h]

phil_20686 said:

That is indeed our agreement, but i still agree with 3 clubs. If you dont mention clubs now you might never give partner the tools he needs to vaule a 1453 hand, also, your spades are not that good and 2s surely suggests a good 5 as partner can show spade support over 3c.

phil_20686 said:

FSF is the agreement, but on this auction it always shows nearly always 4 clubs i think, as it denies 4h or 3 diamonds, and if he had 6s he would always bid 2 or 3 spades. Even often with only 5. I could be 5323 with poor clubs and poor spades. Something like Qxxxx Kxx Kx xxx.

These points contradict. You say you bid 3♣ wanting to find the 5-3 club fit when partner is 1453, but then you say 3♣ is 4sF which may be based on Qxxxx Kxx Kx xxx. So if opener has 1453 then he bids 3NT and what does responder do with the current 5215? What if opener bid 3NT based on 2452? Or what if it's 0454 and opener may not be able to afford to bid over 3NT?

phil_20686 said:

Perhaps 2s is better if you expect partner to pattern out.

What do you mean? If you bid 2♠ you're showing 5spades then opener can bid 2NT/3♣/3♦/3♥/3♠ naturally, ergo, patterning out.

I personally believe 2♠ is the right bid if you have that agreement. Q98xx is considered a good enough suit that may warrant to play in 4♠ on a 5-3 fit. Like gnasher said, if 3♣ is 4sGF then on the auction that was given 3♠ can be based on 2452.

[phil_20686]

i dont think so andy, with the given hand you are surely thinking of slam over any hand that doesnt agree spades directly, in which case you can bid 4c over, say, 3N. However if you bid 2s, and then partner bids 3 clubs stop asking, arent you in trouble? Partner could easily be looking at
x
AKqx
AKQxx
xxx

are you now going to bid 4c? Isnt it pretty hard to get across to partner now that you have a slam try in clubs? How much easier if you just bid 3c and then 4c over 3s.

The situation might be even worse if partner shows a 6th diamond,

-
AKxx
AKJxxx
Txx

after 2s-3d wouldn't 4c now be a cue?

[gnasher]

phil_20686, on Oct 8 2009, 03:29 PM, said:

i dont think so andy, with the given hand you are surely thinking of slam over any hand that doesnt agree spades directly

Personally I'm still thinking of 3NT. Why on earth would I look for a slam on a 10-count with x and xx in partner's suits, a probably useless queen, five spade losers to deal with, and at most a 5-3 fit? Even opposite your one of your own example hands - x AKQx AKQxx xxx - 6♣ is poor, and it's hardly cold opposite the 6430 18-count either.

[jdonn]

I'm with gnasher on this, big time. We have a 10 count and as far as we can see a misfit. Why are we shooting for the moon? Whether your second bid was 2♠ or 3♣ it seems obvious for 3NT to be your third bid.

[peachy]

aguahombre, on Oct 8 2009, 12:11 AM, said:

andy_h, on Oct 7 2009, 11:51 PM, said:

Why didn't I bid 2♠ over 2♥?

because at that point u did not know that your ten hcp were not working points, and 2S would have denied that much strength. both 2S and 2NT (leben) at that juncture are weak bids.

Well, 2S is not a weak bid unless so agreed. It is neutral as to strength and shows 5+ spades and could be weak or quite strong; opener will never Pass 2S. 2NT at responder's second turn to bid is commonly either Lebensohl or BWS style "cheaper of 4th suit or 2NT is wekness showing".