[Ant590]

Hey all,

I appreciate it is expert standard to
A. Opps bid one suit only, cuebid asks for stop
B. Opps bid two suits, cuebid shows stop

Now the logic behind A is clear, otherwise you would have to swap a natural bid and the cuebid. But why is the expert standard reversed for case B?

[Jlall]

ar as I can tell if you are just looking for 3N it is arbitrary if they bid hearts and spades whether you play:

3H= spade stop, asks for heart stop OR
3H= heart stop, asks for spade stop

and vice versa. I will assume expert standard is how it is because if you are going to try for slam and your stopper ask is actually a cuebid, it is natural to cuebid the one you have control of.

Of course you can play

3H= spade stop, asks for heart stop or shows a heart control for slam rather than
3H= heart stop, asks for heart stop or shows a heart control for slam.

Heck you can even play

3H= spade stop, asks for heart stop or shows a spade control for slam

There is no real reason that bidding hearts has to be more related to what you have in the heart suit than what you have in the spade suit. But it is more "natural" for it to be that way.

I would not call it a reversal to have something in the suit you cuebid though rather than something in a different suit. Think about it in terms of what you're showing rather than what you're asking for. If you think about it like this:

3H= shows something in hearts
3S= shows something in spades

rather than

3H= asking about something in spades
3S= asking about something in hearts

it becomes more clear why most people probably play the "standard" way

In general it is way better to think about bridge bids in terms of what they show rather than what they ask imo because there are very few true asking bids.

[pooltuna]

Ant590, on Oct 16 2009, 11:15 AM, said:

Hey all,

I appreciate it is expert standard to
A. Opps bid one suit only, cuebid asks for stop
B. Opps bid two suits, cuebid shows stop

Now the logic behind A is clear, otherwise you would have to swap a natural bid and the cuebid. But why is the expert standard reversed for case B?

when qbid shows a stopper in one suit you left out the part that it also denies one in the other

[cherdanno]

I think it is more natural when you come from the other end. Usually a cuebid shows something in that suit. 1S 3S 4C 4D, here 4D shows s.th. in diamond. But sometimes, when we have only one cuebid, it just shows strength. (3H) 3S, now 4H is the only cuebid and it only shows a good spade raise, not a heart control. Same with 3-level cuebids when you are looking for 3N. (1S) 2C (2S) 3S is not "asking for a stop", it just shows a good hand with club support, as it is the only cuebid we have.

[Trinidad]

Just to use an example, to make it easier to discuss. Say the bidding started:

1♦-2♦*-3♦-Pass  *Michaels: ♥+♠

Now, there are 4 situations:
1 You can have both suits stopped
2 You can have no suit stopped
3 You can have only hearts stopped
4 You can have only spades stopped

If you show stoppers, you will need to bid:
3♥: only hearts stopped, or both stopped (1 or 3)
3♠: spades stopped (4)
3NT: No stoppers (2)

After 3♥, partner can distinguish between having a spade stopper and not having a spade stopper. Should he now show a spade stop by bidding 3♠ or by bidding 3NT?!?. If you take the stopper showing to the extreme, he will show a stop with 3♠ and denying one with 3NT. This will lead to 3NT being played by the side with 1 stopper or with 0 stoppers, but never by the hand with 2 stoppers!

By bidding this way, you are more or less forcing the 3NT into the hand that doesn't have the stopper!

If you ask stoppers, you will bid:
3♥: no heart stop, maybe a spade stop (2 or 4)
3♠: no spade stop, but a heart stop (3)
3NT: both suits stopped (1)

Again, after 3♥, partner can bid 3NT with both suits stopped or bid 3♠ if he only has the heart stop. (Without the heart stop, he will bypass 3NT.)

This way, the 3NT contract gets into the hand with 1 or 2 stoppers.

I know, many will say that this reasoning is ridiculous. When you show stoppers, you show a stop in hearts with 3♥, a stop in spades with 3♠ and a stop in both suits with 3NT. But how are you going to bid without stops? You will have to bypass 3NT or pass. So you can't get to 3NT when partner holds both stops.

Rik

[benlessard]

I think denial is superior, but you have to play denials everywhere even for slams cuebids.

1D----(2D)-----3D----(P)
3H----(P)-------???

3S denies a S (but implies a H stop)
3Nt denies nothing = both s stopped

1D----(2D)-----3D----(P)
3H----(P)-------???

for slammish purpose

1D----(2D)-----3D----(P)
3H----(P)-------3NT----(P)

if you make a slam move here you denied a H control.

Quote

In general it is way better to think about bridge bids in terms of what they show rather than what they ask imo because there are very few true asking bids.

Agree 100% but is it better to show a weakness somethinbg your afraid or to show something you have ?

By showing something your afraid you are implying that you got something in all the bypassed suits.