[helene_t]

Old York, on Jan 11 2010, 05:23 PM, said:

but without this undisclosed partnership agreement

hehe the agreement is playable even if you disclose it. OTOH opps may assume that you adhere to that style so if you don't you'd better disclose as well

[Tomi2]

Codo, on Jan 11 2010, 10:30 AM, said:

hanp, on Jan 12 2010, 12:02 AM, said:

I think it is important to be allowed to bid 2S as opener without serious extras. You can't expect partner to bid again holding something like Qxxx Jxxx Kxx Jx, a typical hand where it is fairly likely that both 2H and 2S will make.

I do agree that KQxx xxx Axxx xx should bid 2S right away.

Maybe it is, but I do not like your reason:

If 2 Spade from doubler promises extras, you surely will bid 2 spade on Qxxx Jxxx Kxx Jx,because you know that partner with minimum values has a 4 card fit or at least a real good 31(45)- in both cases it must be right to compete in the pass out seat.

I never understood the modern trend of bidding 1 spade with 0-10. I see no upsides but some difficult problems later. Maybe someone can explain the upsides to me?

hope I don't take too much of your time...

- playing the jump as "could be even 8 points and maybe only 4 cards spades" will also cause trouble, because in competition doubler cant be sure if there is a good fit or only this 4 card fit. Playing jumps real constructive you often assume 5 cards in spades

- playing the jump as 4 cards and 8 points makes you need an invitational bid, so with 10 to 11 points and 4 cards or say good 9 and 5 card fit you need either to cuebid or jump to 3 level, this might be too high already

- playing the cuebid only inviatational then causes LOTS of problems with forcing hands, after partners response to the cuebid, normaly 2!S you need to find a bit that confirms if you have 4, 5 spades, or if you only cuebided because of your points and maybe have no 4 spades and no real suit at all

playing jumps as constructive and often 5 cards you have to bid 1s on many good hands, but as above mentioned, if 1s gets passed out you did not miss a game, else you get a 2nd bid to show your additional strength like a double in later bidding, this is by newer standards of course not penalty


the fact with 4 and 5 card fit is more important on T/O doubles after 1m than after 1H, because a T/O X on 1 club more often includes only 3 card support for one specific major than x on 1 hearts that is very often based on 4 spades, so playing the old way, you get to play in 4-3 fits more often after a bidding like 1d - x- p - 2h all pass


I think the modern concept of wide ranging responses to TO doubles fits well together with the modern style of doubling (some very light hands and some offshape hands often double) and bidding (your heavy bid rarely gets passed out)

[Old York]

helene_t, on Jan 11 2010, 05:29 PM, said:

Old York, on Jan 11 2010, 05:23 PM, said:

but without this undisclosed partnership agreement

hehe the agreement is playable even if you disclose it. OTOH opps may assume that you adhere to that style so if you don't you'd better disclose as well

I am so pleased that you saw the humour. Far too many fail to recognise the English SOH (Python/Fawlty Towers/Red Dwarf)

I give myself a big LOL

Tony

[bluecalm]

Quote

This thread is wow.

The advancer of KQxx xxx Axxx xx has an automatic 2♠ bid on the first round.

I was more interested in general problem in those situations. I just made up those hands as an example. If you think it's automatic 2♠ (it probably is I was asking about responding style too) then make it :

♠T9xx ♥AQx♦ x ♣K9xxx

Is it still automatic 2♠ ? If yes, what about same hand with Q♣ instead of K ?

What should partner bid with :

AKxx Jx Axxx Ax ?

Surely nothing at 3level. What should he bid with:

Kxxx Jx Axxx Ax ?

I am asking about solution for this situation. Is 1♠ 0-10 ? Is 2♠ 11-17 ? I am not that much interested in specific hands. Just make your own to fit your style. Maybe with your style there is no problem at all in those situations. If that is the case I would love to know what this style is :-)

[Old York]

bluecalm, on Jan 11 2010, 06:00 PM, said:

I am asking about solution for this situation. Is 1♠ 0-10 ? Is 2♠ 11-17 ?

Using standard methods with a pick-up partner
After 1♥ is doubled

1♠ response to double is minimum (0-9 total points - may be 3 card)
1NT response 6-9hcp+stopper
2♠ response is invitational (10-12 total points)
2NT response is invitational (10-12hcp + stopper)
3♠ response is often pre-emptive (weak with good spades)
3NT response is 13hcp with double stopper
4♠ response is 13+ with an excellent suit
2♥ bid is also 13+ (may be directional asking)

Others may disagree, but this is a reasonably safe approach - which has been proved to work, and should not end in disaster
All of the above assumes that the double was minimum, but not sub-minimum.
A take-out double is expected to show opening values, shortage in enemy suit and support (or tollerance) for all unbid suits.... unless doubler is very strong (16+)

Tony

[nigel_k]

bluecalm, on Jan 12 2010, 05:00 AM, said:

I was more interested in general problem in those situations. I just made up those hands as an example. If you think it's automatic 2♠ (it probably is I was asking about responding style too) then make it :

♠T9xx ♥AQx♦ x ♣K9xxx

Is it still automatic 2♠ ? If yes, what about same hand with Q♣ instead of K ?

What should partner bid with :

AKxx Jx Axxx Ax ?

Surely nothing at 3level. What should he bid with:

Kxxx Jx Axxx Ax ?

I am asking about solution for this situation. Is 1♠ 0-10 ? Is 2♠ 11-17 ? I am not that much interested in specific hands. Just make your own to fit your style. Maybe with your style there is no problem at all in those situations. If that is the case I would love to know what this style is :-)

You have to jump to 2♠ with KQxx xxx Axxx xx. The jump is not forcing and shows about 8-10 or a bad 11. In no way does it suggest a five card suit. 1♠ would be around 0-7 or bad 8. This is not some expert tactic, it is standard bridge that I would teach to beginners. Anyway this is a good hand with an ace, a king and a working queen so jumping to 2♠ would be ok even if 1♠ can be up to 9 HCP.

If opener passes, the doubler needs extra values (eg balanced 16 or good 15) in order to raise 1♠ to 2♠. If opener bids again then it is tactically better for doubler with four card support to raise with a bit less. Your example hand ATxx Kx Qxx QJxx is a pass though.

On your examples, I would definitely jump to 2♠ with T9xx AQx x Q9xxx and it would be ok even with T9xx AQx xx Q9xx. With T9xx AQx x K9xxx it's definitely a maximum 2♠ and maybe a cue bid is better as you could miss a game bidding only 2♠.

With AKxx Jx Axxx Ax partner should raise 1♠ to 2♠ and 2♠ to 4♠.

With Kxxx Jx Axxx Ax partner should pass 2♠ and could maybe raise 1♠ to 2♠ in competition only but it's a bare minimum for that action.