[vuroth]

655321, on Apr 12 2010, 08:35 AM, said:

On this particular hand, overcalling vulnerable at the 2 level is very risky - with no tricks, you will often go for a number. So if you do want to bid (and you do have seven spades), 1♠ offers a compromise between the friendly pass and the suicidal jump overcall.

Presumably if I bid 1♠ I'm pulling anything partner doubles? Or is this just one of those cases of sometimes opponents make a doubled contract?

I agree that I have some play strength, but I have a TON less defense than 1♠ usually promises. For me it's not so much about being a passive vs aggressive bidder, it's more a function of how badly I'm going to mislead my partner.

FWIW

[mikeh]

Kathryn

Over 3♥, I would bid 3♠.

The main problems are that 3♥ need not promise 6+ in the suit; 3N may be the best spot; we may belong in clubs; and, finally, tho our hand is not great, it is far from minimum and 4♥ squelches virtually all slam hopes...partner would need a monster to have 5 level safety given that your 3♦ call, gf tho it was, was made under pressure.

BTW, whenever you have a tough choice of bidding actions, it often pays to make the cheaper one unless doing so is a significant distortion. The cheaper the bid, the more room you leave partner, and the more information can be exchanged. Too many players focus only on their problem, not on partner's possible concerns. Bidding 3♠ tells partner that you are either not sure about where to go, or that you have a very good hand, and in the meantime gives partner more opportunity to clarify his hand.

[655321]

vuroth, on Apr 12 2010, 10:24 AM, said:

655321, on Apr 12 2010, 08:35 AM, said:

On this particular hand, overcalling vulnerable at the 2 level is very risky - with no tricks, you will often go for a number.  So if you do want to bid (and you do have seven spades), 1♠ offers a compromise between the friendly pass and the suicidal jump overcall.

Presumably if I bid 1♠ I'm pulling anything partner doubles? Or is this just one of those cases of sometimes opponents make a doubled contract?

I agree that I have some play strength, but I have a TON less defense than 1♠ usually promises. For me it's not so much about being a passive vs aggressive bidder, it's more a function of how badly I'm going to mislead my partner.

FWIW

No, I am not ripping penalty doubles. What level contract will partner be doubling? If partner starts doubling partscores as soon as we have made a 1 level overcall because he thinks we have shown 2 defensive tricks, he will soon learn. If partner doubles them in 3NT or 4♥ it would be idiotic to run to 4♠.

It is true that you have a couple of points fewer than partner might expect, and you have a couple of spades more. Neither of these factors are particularly exciting.

Anyway, you don't have to overcall 1♠ with this hand. But if your 1♠ overcalls promise 'a TON of defense', I recommend that you loosen up a bit.

[vuroth]

Once upon a time, I would have bid 3♠ and not thought much about it. Where I am right now, I would pass, and not think much about it.

I'd like to understand people's reasoning, so I can continue to refine my decision making process.

When partner overcalls at the 1 level, I would expect, on average, around 1.5 tricks from him. Certainly, it could be less, but something as weak as K KQ still has a good shot at 1 trick. On defense, I'm a full trick less than that.

Plus, maybe I'm a little old-fashioned, but I already have a difficult time coping with how wide 8-16 point overcalls are. Widening the range for this hand just seems....dangerous.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to be a slave to HCPs here. With 7321, I'm much more likely to stick my nose out.

Both gwnn and 655 seem to feel that 1S is better than Pass, or I guess at very least close. So I guess I'm wrong, but I'm trying to understand why.

[helene_t]

Maybe I have developed bad habits from playing in weak fields. But I don't think 2♠ with this hand would be very dangerous. Neither opp will pass his p's double with less than four spades. Even if one opp has four spades, they may not be able to double, or occasionally they may not pass the double even with four spades. If we get to 2♠X we haven't lost the board yet. We may go for 1100 against a vulnerable slam.

Once (butler, r/w) my p made a 2♠ overcall on a hand like this. Passed out. I tabled a prime 17-count with a void spades. It made for a very good score. If he had bid 1♠ I would have kept forcing until opps doubled us in 3♠ or 4♠ or 3NT.

[gwnn]

There is a simple guideline for light overcalls: partner can and should force to game with a strong NT. I don't think we don't belong to game opposite a strong NT I think... Anyway the point is that it is not just a question of a certain pre-defined range. Even if you think partner with a strong NT will take you too high, it may be the case that it is still right to overcall.. This is because it might pay off the times partner does not have a strong NT, for example when he just raises us and the opps bid too high or they don't bid high enough etc.

[gwnn]

Anyway I can tell you that bidding S over H can be very annoying to opponents. I know it is to me! Oh crap they bid 4S over 4H again... Oh no we have no idea what's right. If only we could get these 2 jerks to STOP BIDDING... They are bidding on the worst hands possible but we are the ones who are losing the imps... Anyway it is fully possible that they x us somewhere or pass us somewhere and we go for 200. But even if pd competes to the 3 level or something I mean we then rate to be in a 7-4 fit, that can't be so bad..I.

[Cascade]

mikeh, on Apr 13 2010, 04:34 AM, said:

BTW, whenever you have a tough choice of bidding actions, it often pays to make the cheaper one unless doing so is a significant distortion. The cheaper the bid, the more room you leave partner, and the more information can be exchanged. Too many players focus only on their problem, not on partner's possible concerns. Bidding 3♠ tells partner that you are either not sure about where to go, or that you have a very good hand, and in the meantime gives partner more opportunity to clarify his hand.

This is some of the best general advice most beginner intermediates should read and understand.

[gwnn]

I don't like 3♦ so much BTW, I'd double, I am relatively balanced and I don't want to play in a 5-3 diamond fit except at the slam level..

[Cascade]

gwnn, on Apr 13 2010, 06:24 AM, said:

There is a simple guideline for light overcalls: partner can and should force to game with a strong NT. I don't think we don't belong to game opposite a strong NT I think... Anyway the point is that it is not just a question of a certain pre-defined range. Even if you think partner with a strong NT will take you too high, it may be the case that it is still right to overcall.. This is because it might pay off the times partner does not have a strong NT, for example when he just raises us and the opps bid too high or they don't bid high enough etc.

I usually think that a strong NT is only worth an invite over a weak two especially if we do not have a super fit for partner's suit.

[gwnn]

I agree but I was talking about 1 level overcalls

[Jlall]

Cascade, on Apr 12 2010, 05:46 AM, said:

The suit opened makes some difference.

Sure I agree, I more meant would you bid over any of 1C/1D/1H/1N?

Basically I meant in practice does it change your decision or not.

For me on this hand it is not (remotely) close enough in my judgement for it to matter to me what they opened. That being said on close decisions, I might decide based on those factors.

[Jlall]

helene_t, on Apr 12 2010, 11:17 AM, said:

Maybe I have developed bad habits from playing in weak fields. But I don't think 2♠ with this hand would be very dangerous. Neither opp will pass his p's double with less than four spades. Even if one opp has four spades, they may not be able to double, or occasionally they may not pass the double even with four spades. If we get to 2♠X we haven't lost the board yet. We may go for 1100 against a vulnerable slam.

Hey Helene,

If you always overcall 2S in weak fields, you will definitely get good results. But if you always passed in weak fields, you would also get good results. So it might be hard to say that 2S>p even if 2S isn't that dangerous, because you don't really know how much you've gained.

That said, I'm a big believer in preempting aggressively against bad opps, since most of them know what to do in constructive auctions most of the time (except slam bidding), but have poor judgement.

At imps, it seems like there isn't a huge amount of upside towards preempting here. You're unlikely to steal or talk them out of a game, and even if you happen to steal on their hand, if you go -200 or -300 you haven't gained much vs a white game.

If there is not much upside and not much downside, consider that you are hurting your bidding a lot when you have a real 2S bid. Partner will make less accurate decisions since you have a wider range, so it'd be better to keep a narrower range if the hands you add into the 2S bid aren't benefiting you very much.

At matchpoints there is a lot more upside to preempting, but there is a lot more downside, you could just go for 200 on a partscore hand which is terrible.

[Jlall]

Usually I am all for overcalling at the 1 level. However, bidding red/white with this hand seems pointless to me.

Generally you bid 1S in hopes that you can find a game, or find a save, or compete for the partial, or get a lead in, or just to be a nuisance to them.

I think being a nuisance to them red/white is unlikely to be a good idea with terrible hands. Finding a save r/w is not a consideration. When we are this weak, finding a game shouldn't be a consideration; we'll find it if we pass. Even if it's our hand to compete for the partial, probably partner will get us in there since our hand is so weak. If we overcall, he might well get us too high on those deals. We don't really need a spade lead.

Basically, I think bidding with this hand red/white is pointless, and not because partner might start cracking them. It is a definite possibility partner will overbid though, I would never blame him for game forcing a misfitting 17 or possibly 16.

And there is significant risk that he will bid a different suit hoping to compete or whatever, and we just get doubled. It is just a bad idea to bid r/w with complete garbage imo, the usual reasons do not apply, AND the risk is much higher.

[gwnn]

Do we know that they are favourable actually? Not trying to be a format nazi, I somehow got the idea that we are at both Vul, now I can't find anything about them.

[Jlall]

gwnn, on Apr 12 2010, 03:27 PM, said:

Do we know that they are favourable actually? Not trying to be a format nazi, I somehow got the idea that we are at both Vul, now I can't find anything about them.

I always take 2nd seat vul to mean red/white, perhaps this is a non standard interpretation?

[xcurt]

Jlall, on Apr 12 2010, 03:18 PM, said:

Usually I am all for overcalling at the 1 level. However, bidding red/white with this hand seems pointless to me.

Another reason overcalling is pointless is partner is unlikely to be able to raise spades, and if he can raise spades, at least one of the opponent is short there and will have an easy time competing.

In this regard the 7th spade is sort of a liability.

[jillybean]

Jlall, on Apr 12 2010, 01:32 PM, said:

gwnn, on Apr 12 2010, 03:27 PM, said:

Do we know that they are favourable actually? Not trying to be a format nazi, I somehow got the idea that we are at both Vul, now I can't find anything about them.

I always take 2nd seat vul to mean red/white, perhaps this is a non standard interpretation?

That is what I intended, the 2♠ bidder was Red vs White

[gwnn]

OK red vs white I will pass, but it still feels weird to pass with 7 spades. I need to drink a glass of water before I pass..

[jillybean]

Cascade, on Apr 12 2010, 12:41 PM, said:

mikeh, on Apr 13 2010, 04:34 AM, said:

BTW, whenever you have a tough choice of bidding actions, it often pays to make the cheaper one unless doing so is a significant distortion. The cheaper the bid, the more room you leave partner, and the more information can be exchanged. Too many players focus only on their problem, not on partner's possible concerns. Bidding 3♠ tells partner that you are either not sure about where to go, or that you have a very good hand, and in the meantime gives partner more opportunity to clarify his hand.

This is some of the best general advice most beginner intermediates should read and understand.

This is very good advice thanks, as well as only focusing on my own problems I often need reminding that I have a tendancy to feel like I need to make the decision myself and set the contract, rather than giving partner the information and trusting he will make the right decision. My partners are smart people.

I have been left in 3♠ before but it will only happen once with the same (BBO) partner