[gwnn]

Ron did you notice that Justin adressed that? If it is not clear to you what he meant maybe it would be more efficient if you replied to his answer, not the question posed to him.

[ggwhiz]

At the Regional level, (small potatoes to these guys) this should be good for a laugh, period. And a good one at that!

I agree with jlalls general sentiment in competition but not sure I could resist re-hashing the hand in the bar, win or in this case eventually lose against THESE players.

Might be good for a round, forget the mastepoints

[Jlall]

kenberg, on May 21 2010, 06:58 PM, said:

I accept and even like that. But this ruling is so odd that I think even I would say something along the lines of "I don't actually know what the rules are, but this can't be what they say. Please show me where it says that."

I still think this is asking too much, I mean these situations are always weird like when partner is barred what do you bid etc. It doesn't seem that weird to me that I am barred when I bid out of turn, and that partner can't double something, both of those things happen in different circumstances.

All this being said isn't Rodwell disadvantaging himself by not asking? He is the one who is screwed by the 4H loophole if it existed, and screwed by not asking about it (since it doesn't actually exist). Maybe I'm reading it wrong?

[aguahombre]

Maybe Eric --unlike the rest of us ---has never jumped the gun before.

[kgr]

Jlall, on May 21 2010, 10:33 PM, said:

Again in this scenario I would never EXPECT my opps to not do this if they figured it out, and I would never criticize them for doing this.

The quote of me is very carefully worded, I never said I would do what Meckwell did and if you read between the lines I implied that I personally would not do that.

This is analagous to taking advantage of a penalty card which everyone does/I don't care if they do, but I personally do not believe in doing so.

I always expect my opps to do whatever they can legally to gain advantage, especially in a high level event, call me cynical! I don't believe in imposing my own morals on others.

Edit: And fwiw people have argued that I am in fact behaving unethically/unfairly to my team/the field because I don't accept penalty cards (there have been threads on this also). Some have told me it is illegal. But at the very least I can accept the penalty card and not take some "finesse" because of it (eg dummy has Qx, I have Ax, they have a penalty card and I know they have the king, I can lead the queen for a gain). That is very similar to me, and I would not do it, but I would always expect my opps to do it and not look down upon them for it.

I will not impose a penalty on beginners (if possible), but I will always do otherwise. The opps will also do it if I lead out of turn, revoke,...
It simply feels too bad if I let go a penalty card and the next hand the opps impose a stupid penalty for eg a revoke.
...Also: if you let go a penalty after I did lead out of turn and the next hand you revoke, but it is not clear if you gained a trick by revoking (eg probably not, but not impossible)...should I call the TD?
Isn't it easier to call the TD and let him decide?
 
BTW: Most mistakes where I play are ethical. eg asking about 1C opening when having good clubs, bidding with border line hands when partner tanked,... I don't call TD for this because often the opps don't understand what is wrong.

[gordontd]

kgr, on May 22 2010, 10:54 AM, said:

BTW: Most mistakes where I play are ethical. eg asking about 1C opening when having good clubs, bidding with border line hands when partner tanked,... I don't call TD for this because often the opps don't understand what is wrong.

If nobody asks the TD to explain it to them, they never will understand.

[kgr]

gordontd, on May 22 2010, 12:23 PM, said:

kgr, on May 22 2010, 10:54 AM, said:

BTW: Most mistakes where I play are ethical. eg asking about 1C opening when having good clubs, bidding with border line hands when partner tanked,... I don't call TD for this because often the opps don't understand what is wrong.

If nobody asks the TD to explain it to them, they never will understand.

Initially I tried to explain it myself, but I gave up

[gwnn]

Explaining yourself is NOT better than calling the TD. It is illegal and -at least to me- very annoying and condescending.

[kenberg]

Random thoughts

I need to read better. It was a Regional. I thought Club. If Rodwell was playing I thought that must be one hell of a club.


Ok, Regional. That's a pretty bad ruling for a Regional. Difficult situations are, well, difficult. Ruling on a call out of turn should be routine. Yes I have seen calls out of turn, and not just the first call. In some auctions it is more or less obvious that the opponents will be passing at every turn. Sometimes the bidding side, absorbed in their complexities, "sees" a pass card that has not been played. I make errors, everyone makes errors, but that ruling, at a Regional, is hard for me to understand.

I did not intend any criticism of Rodwell, or West, or anyone except the director. I was expressing amazement that things could go that far off track.

I am more than content to let it be. It is definitely a fun story, I apologize if I have appeared not to appreciate a good story on its own terms.

[Rossoneri]

gwnn, on May 22 2010, 12:45 PM, said:

Explaining yourself is NOT better than calling the TD. It is illegal and -at least to me- very annoying and condescending.

Agreed.

Pretty funny story, but thoroughly let down by the wrong ruling given by the director!

[kgr]

gwnn, on May 22 2010, 01:45 PM, said:

Explaining yourself is NOT better than calling the TD. It is illegal and -at least to me- very annoying and condescending.

I had the following at the club against two LOLs (with playing TD) playing 4 hands against this pair:
hand 1:
Partner opened 1♣ and I declared a game contract. My RHO asked during the bidding what the 1♣ opening was and how many clubs it promised. She had a good 5c♣.
hand 2:
My partner opened 1♦ and I played 3NT. With LHO on lead, RHO asked before the lead if 1♦ was real. She had a good 5 or 6c♦.
...Actually RHO asked more then once in both hands.
Luckily LHO did not lead ♣ or ♦, not that she was very ethical , but she didn't get the clue.
=> Why can I not (try) to explain RHO that she shouldn't do this?
 
 
Something else: Before I knew anything about the laws, I declared 3NT in an important match. RHO cashed 4 Spades and then played ♥A. LHO revoked on that trick. I thought that I was already down before the revoke and noted 3NT-1. Now I would ask that trick back and note 3NT= (Most opps will do the same if they know the law)

[gwnn]

Because it is illegal and annoying and condescending.

[kenberg]

In addition, often the players who explain rules to opponents have no clue what they are talking about. letting something go is fine, at least at the club level. Calling the director is fine. Explaining to the opponents what they have done wrong without calling the director is definitely not fine.

Lately I have been playing some at a local club, a nearby and very pleasant place. No one but an absolute beginner would mistake me for an expert but we usually come in first or second. I have told my partner that if we continue to play there we should vary from NS to EW. Maybe we should play there, maybe we shouldn't, but I never call the director except for something clear cut such as a revoke. I offer suggestions only if asked and maybe not then.

Regionals are a different story. An entirely different story.

[Fluffy]

at my local its not so rare to see my opponents asking me to rule when something wrong happens myself, they just don't want director to be summoned at the table and every look at them. Unless we are forgiving a revoke/penalty card, we summon director regardless of course.

[ggwhiz]

Quote

Explaining yourself is NOT better than calling the TD. It is illegal and -at least to me- very annoying and condescending.

100% correct as per a previous post in Laws and Rulings(?) where a self-styled expert rudely told an opponent they were not allowed to bid after a hesitation in the middle of an auction!

Even being polite about any situation doesn't make you right. When I don't want to call a Director against rookies, I might gently suggest that they ask what the rules are after the session and note that I'm not sure but it's the Directors job.

[aguahombre]

Very interested in these last things as pertain to club ethics and how to handle them. Shouldn't it be a new thread somewhere?

The constant problem of director walking tighrope, and players doing the same because they might seem consescending vs teaching players what is right --etc..
is worth exploring further, IMO.

[hanp]

Why would west bid 4H? He can also bid 4S, 5C or 5D and play there undoubled right? Surely one of these contracts would be down fewer?

[gwnn]

I think the point was that 4H is clearer than 4S . Partner could rightfully assume that he really has spades for a 4S bid.

[hanp]

Are we assuming that partner is stupid? Partner saw the 3H bid as well didn't he?

[Radrag]

Jlall, on May 21 2010, 03:52 PM, said:

kenberg, on May 21 2010, 03:47 PM, said:

And I would imagine Rodwell knows the rules for bid out of turn. How come he let this go?

This is not fair, I am obv not Rodwell but I had no idea what the ruling for this kind of situation is, and from all my experiences with top pros very few know stuff like this.

But I think it is fair to assume that Rodwell should know the correct ruling:

http://www.acbl.org/...ionMembers.html