[kfay]

With one partner after we open 1♦-1♠; 1N for us actually shows 4♥ so I'd bid that

Yes, I realize this is at least somewhat stupid.

[kenrexford]

kfay, on Aug 27 2010, 09:43 AM, said:

With one partner after we open 1♦-1♠; 1N for us actually shows 4♥ so I'd bid that

Yes, I realize this is at least somewhat stupid.

Actually, not stupid at all. If 1♦ is always unbalanced, as I play with my wife, then 1NT always shows four hearts and one (or zero) spade.

[gordontd]

helene_t, on Aug 27 2010, 10:53 AM, said:

Yes, but IMHO that is just because the authors think that it's easier to teach beginners that repeating a suit just shows 5 instead of making complicated rules for when it shows 5 and when it shows 6.

Or just because it doesn't show six in Acol.

[awm]

Well, I disagree with most of Justin's posts. To summarize:

(1) After 1♦-1♠-2♣, we have seen hands where good players push for game holding four clubs and less than traditional invitational values (i.e. 8 hcp). I do not see much cause to push for game after 1♦-1♠-2♦ holding two diamonds and less than traditional values -- 4-4 and 5-4 fits tend to be much more powerful than 6-2 fits after all, and the 2♦ rebid is limited to around 15 hcp. Why would you raise on an 8-count with only two diamonds? Certainly with a really good diamond fit (three diamonds and a stiff, four diamonds) we'd push on 8 hcp, but at least this establishes a real fit.

(2) Certainly I play 1♦-1♠-2♦-2♥ as natural and forcing one round (inv+). My impression was that this is a standard treatment! Surprised to hear Justin thinks otherwise. On a minimum without major fit opener bids 2♠ (doubleton) or 2NT (club stopper, generally 1363) or 3♦ (7♦, or 1363 with good diamonds and no club stop). On a maximum without major fit opener bids 3♣ (4th suit general values/punt) or 3NT with good clubs.

(3) After 1♦-1♠-2♣-2NT, certainly you can bid 3♥ to "pattern out." But the given hand is a minimum opening bid (12 hcp, unspectacular spots, etc). Is it really worth accepting the invite just in case you have the 4-4 heart fit? Of course if you reject the invite you have to pass. Similarly, you could play 1♦-1♠-2♣-2♥ as invitational-plus (even though I think most of the forums plays GF, as I do). And you could agree that 3♥ is natural there. But again, if you push to 3♥ with a minimum opposite an invite I don't see how you can stop short of game.

(4) It's true that you may be able to find hearts opposite partner's game force, at least if you play 1♦-1♠-2♣-2♥-3♥ as natural rather than a sort of stopper ask. However, this sequence is quite awkward and does not permit partner to look for a heart slam below the game level (presumably 3♠/4♣/4♦ from partner now are all natural and setting strain). Also note that partner will expect 1444 or 0454 patterns and may still look for slam in clubs because 4-4 fits usually produce an extra trick, so despite partner's game-force values you haven't solved the problems.

Absolutely there are problems with all three rebids. My view though, is that the problems with 1NT are mostly problems of agreement (you need to have the agreement that partner doesn't rebid 2♠ on bad five card suits, and the compensating agreement to raise on three). The problems with 2♦ are almost all on less-than-invite hands from partner (where you risk a 5-1 or very rarely 5-0 fit). The 2♣ rebid on the other hand, creates many issues on invitational and even GF partner hands (as well as some problems on less-than-invite hands).

Further, having the right agreements will help for 1NT rebids or for 2♦ rebids (just agree not to raise on doubleton and thin values -- you won't miss many games like that and opener can usually rebid 3♦ to play over 2NT on six good ones and 6-1 fits play ok). I don't see any mildly non-standard set of agreements helping you over a 2♣ rebid (bid 2NT with four clubs in case partner has three? play 2♥ inv+ instead of GF? but these seem to cost huge when partner has more normal hands).

[kfay]

kenrexford, on Aug 27 2010, 10:29 AM, said:

kfay, on Aug 27 2010, 09:43 AM, said:

With one partner after we open 1♦-1♠; 1N for us actually shows 4♥ so I'd bid that

Yes, I realize this is at least somewhat stupid.

Actually, not stupid at all. If 1♦ is always unbalanced, as I play with my wife, then 1NT always shows four hearts and one (or zero) spade.

Yes this is basically how we play, along with a weak NT. Personally, I think a better method is transfer rebids.

[hanp]

I've lost track of the discussion ever since somebody claimed that partner always has 5+ spades when she has short diamonds. Could somebody wake me up if something new has been said since the last time this same topic was discussed?

[Lobowolf]

Happy 2♣ bidder here. It's been my bid of choice in this situation for quite a while, and it hasn't cost too many 4-4 heart fits, though as Adam points out, that's a possibility. Reverse Flannery cuts the possibility down even more (it was very rare, in my experience, before I took up RF, though). If 4th suit is GF, your heart misses (in conjunction with RF) are pretty much down to those times when partner's hand specifically 1) includes 4 hearts (obv.), 2) has exactly invitational strength, and 3) you don't have enough to accept the invite. It's a rare parlay.

[mgoetze]

Can I vote 1NT Matchpoints / 2♦ IMPs?

[the hog]

helene_t, on Aug 27 2010, 08:56 PM, said:

1eyedjack, on Aug 27 2010, 02:54 PM, said:

helene_t, on Aug 27 2010, 10:53 AM, said:

gordontd, on Aug 27 2010, 09:48 AM, said:

Actually I imagine almost all Acol textbooks would regard this as a routine 2♦ rebid - which doesn't promise six diamonds and doesn't deny four hearts.

Yes, but IMHO that is just because the authors think that it's easier to teach beginners that repeating a suit just shows 5 instead of making complicated rules for when it shows 5 and when it shows 6.

I think that the reason is more related to the fact that the hand would be outside the range for a 1NT rebid when a 1NT opener is 12-14.

That's why a 1NT rebid isn't an option. Then the two options that remain are 2♣ and 2♦.

No, only one option playing Acol with a weak NT and that is 2D.