[Echognome]

Scoring: MP

1♠ - (2♣) - Dbl - (ReDbl)*;
?

---

*Shows A or K of clubs.

What's your call now?

[jdonn]

2♦, trick question?

[Echognome]

jdonn, on Sep 21 2010, 11:31 AM, said:

2♦, trick question?

Not intended as a trick question. Just wondered if there was anything to a MP driven 2♥.

[kgr]

I also voted 2♦, but maybe Pass is a good option. That should show no preference and therefor a hand like this (with 4c♥ we would have preference)?

[655321]

kgr, on Sep 22 2010, 02:37 AM, said:

maybe Pass is a good option. That should show no preference

Pass would show a desire to defend 2♣XX.

[gordontd]

kgr, on Sep 22 2010, 08:37 AM, said:

I also voted 2♦, but maybe Pass is a good option. That should show no preference and therefor a hand like this (with 4c♥ we would have preference)?

With 5332 you would have no preference - aside from the point above about what pass shows.

[Free]

2♦ wtp for me

[kgr]

655321, on Sep 22 2010, 11:06 AM, said:

kgr, on Sep 22 2010, 02:37 AM, said:

maybe Pass is a good option. That should show no preference

Pass would show a desire to defend 2♣XX.

I'm not sure what it is and don't know how my partner would take this Pass, ..do you?
Isn't this similar to (1♠)-DBL-(RDBL)-Pass
Where Pass shows no preference?

[Codo]

No, it is not similar. It is a totally different situation.

[jdonn]

Echognome, on Sep 21 2010, 01:37 PM, said:

jdonn, on Sep 21 2010, 11:31 AM, said:

2♦, trick question?

Not intended as a trick question. Just wondered if there was anything to a MP driven 2♥.

It's not like you know partner will have a pass of that bid. He may just raise you on a 4 card suit and you get to a silly contract. Also you may not be the only member of the partnership with three hearts.

That said 2♥ could definitely strike matchpoint gold. But why make a weird bid on an easy hand that could work badly very easily?

[hanp]

I think the issue whether pass expresses an interest in defending is very interesting. I don't often pass this negative double, and I think the desire to defend is even rarer when RHO redoubles. A pass to show no preference will often be useful though, we could pass anytime we have a 5-3-3-2 distribution for example. I think it will be more useful than a penalty pass.

I hope Codo will explain why the situation is "Completely Different".

[Codo]

Really Han?

Situation 1: you open, they bid a suit, partner doubles and RHO shows a top honour.

Situation 2: They open, partner makes a take out double and is redoubled to show points.

This is the same for you??

In No 1 you have 10+ HCPS, and 5 spades already anounced.
You have at least the values of an opening and and of a double of a bid at the second level. So even with low standards, you have at least 17 HCPS in your partnership.

In No 2 you have shown zero points and no real suit so far. They have shown at least around 20 HCPS.

If this is no difference for you and if you like to have the same goals in both situations-good luck.

[cherdanno]

I think there is a difference to (1S) X (XX) P. On this auction, 2♣ overcaller often has a 6-card suit, and redoubler typically showed at least Hx (or may have Hxx, judging from the explanation). So that makes us less likely to hold a penalty pass, and more likely to have a fit somewhere else.

[hanp]

Codo, if I wrote somewhere that there is no difference, or that the two auctions are the same, I apologize because I did not mean to do so.

[655321]

I always have a blanket rule that all these passes are for penalty (except for kgr's example, specifically at the 1 level when sitting under the bidder), but it is true that a 'no preference' pass does sound playable here when RHO has shown the Ace or King.

[jdonn]

Codo anyone can see the auctions are different. But the value in your post would be pointing out first of all what those differences are (which you did in your second post although you missed the important difference cherdanno pointed out), and secondly why those differences mean the certain auctions should be treated the ways you are suggesting.

Otherwise it does no good to someone trying to learn who will have a slightly different auction than either of these come up and still not know how his pass over a redouble should be treated. Anyone who has had such a misunderstanding before can assure you that it is quite expensive!

[kgr]

hanp, on Sep 22 2010, 02:45 PM, said:

A pass to show no preference will often be useful though, we could pass anytime we have a 5-3-3-2 distribution for example. I think it will be more useful than a penalty pass

Or with the example hand?
Partner knows that you don't have 4c♥ when you don't bid 2♥.
And Partner can be f.i.: 2542 with a hand to weak to bid 2♥. If you bid 2♦ then he will pass....Or partner can have a minimal hand with 2533, and maybe also pass when you bid 2♦

[hanp]

I wouldn't pass without discussion. If you have the agreement though then I think pass is ok, but if partner is 2443 you won't get to the 4-4 fit.

[dake50]

I very much like my pass to show no suggestion for our best place. Then a bid is a reasonably good suggestion --no further couching just-in-case. Let partner have his steering wheel operative. I trust his judgment.
Here 2C-xx is too low (3+level -> to suggest penalty or a limit bid in) to suggest penalty, just amenable if partner wants to try.

[Phil]

We've had some discussions on here about what it means when some passes a redouble.

The particular auction I remember was p - p - 4S - x; - xx - P, but we've also talked about lower levels. I thought the consensus was a pass of a redouble at the one level was 'no preference' unless your name is Adam. Passes at higher levels are penalty.

Therefore, I would bid 2♦. Partner isn't barred from showing a good heart suit here although with this cheese its quite likely I'll hear a 3♣ on my left.