[jahol]

Two problems.

Problem 1. Contract selection with good(?) info.

IMPs, both lines vulnerable, you have

Ax---void---A1097xxx---1097x

Your partner opens with 1NT (15-17). From the next relay bidding sequence , you know that partner has 4-3-2-4 distribution. Do you prefer 3NT contract, 5 clubs contract (played from your side) or 5 diamonds contract (played from your side)?


Problem 2. Contract selection with not that good info...

IMPs, only opponents vulnerable, you have

A10862---J85---AQ---865

and the bidding is

LHO------partner------RHO-------you
..............1H(1).........2NT(2)----X(3)
5D--------5S-----------6D---------??

(1) --- Standard American, 12-20, 5+H
(2) --- 5+-5+ in minor suits, "weak" or "strong"
(3) --- 8+PC, more defensive than "to play" values, "small" fit in H posible...

What do you bid?

[hanp]

Quote

Two problems.

Problem 1. Contract selection with good(?) info.

IMPs, both lines vulnerable, you have

Ax---void---A1097xxx---1097x

Your partner opens with 1NT (15-17). From the next relay bidding sequence , you know that partner has 4-3-2-4 distribution. Do you prefer 3NT contract, 5 clubs contract (played from your side) or 5 diamonds contract (played from your side)?

I definitely agree with the question mark (?) behind good! Hopefully you realize that knowing partner's shape is not particularly useful. It just doesn't make sense to have the highly unbalanced 8-count ask the strong balanced hand about his shape.

Not only do I think that it is a huge mistake to relay with this hand, I also think that the space you have reserved for the relays can be better put for other uses.

[hanp]

Quote

Problem 2. Contract selection with not that good info...

IMPs, only opponents vulnerable, you have

A10862---J85---AQ---865

and the bidding is

LHO------partner------RHO-------you
..............1H(1).........2NT(2)----X(3)
5D--------5S-----------6D---------??

(1) --- Standard American, 12-20, 5+H
(2) --- 5+-5+ in minor suits, "weak" or "strong"
(3) --- 8+PC, more defensive than "to play" values, "small" fit in H posible...

What do you bid?

Once again we have completely failed to tell partner about our hand and we are left guessing.

I'd say that partner's shape is most likely 5-7-0-1, and he is not that likely to have the club ace. I'd bid only 6S.

[jdonn]

On the first I agree with han, we should be describing our hand not having partner describe his. In any case 5♦ looks like the best guess. I'm certainly not playing in clubs!

On the second hand I'll make a forcing pass then if partner doubles I'll pull to 6♠ to invite a grand. If he pulls to a major himself I'll figure him for a wasted diamond void and not bid a grand.

[pooltuna]

1) I would prefer 3NT if partner has a double ♥ stopper, failing that I guess i would bite the dust for 5♣

2) Repeat after me 2,5,8,11,14...

[kfay]

On the 2nd hand I think that bidding is a good idea. We may go down, but even if we double them here we're certainly not going to get rich. I'm not going to try to sort out 6 or 7 at this level.

[jdonn]

pooltuna, on Sep 21 2010, 01:17 PM, said:

2) Repeat after me 2,5,8,11,14...

I got lost after 2. Or do you think your vulnerable opponents bidding to the 6 level are just insane and have no idea what they are doing? In fact I think it's more likely they make than that they are down more than 1.

[pooltuna]

jdonn, on Sep 21 2010, 01:19 PM, said:

pooltuna, on Sep 21 2010, 01:17 PM, said:

2) Repeat after me 2,5,8,11,14...

I got lost after 2. Or do you think your vulnerable opponents bidding to the 6 level are just insane and have no idea what they are doing? In fact I think it's more likely they make than that they are down more than 1.

I have to question their sanity if I am holding AQ of trump and another A with partner opening the bidding. Of course I recall a hand yesterday against less than stellar opponents....

Scoring: XIMP

Auction
(2♦) 2♠ (3♣) X
all pass

---

with west hand my thoughts were "I LOVE VOLUNTEERS" (i.e. where opponents elect to willingly go down) ...2,5,8,11 bingo

[jdonn]

Promise I don't know the hand or the opponents. I'll give you $20 if they are down 800 or more and you give me $10 if they make, and we'll call 200 or 500 a push. Deal? Alternatively we can bet $10 straight up and make 500 a win for you as well, if you prefer.

[jahol]

hanp, on Sep 21 2010, 01:03 PM, said:

Quote

I definitely agree with the question mark (?) behind good! Hopefully you realize that knowing partner's shape is not particularly useful. It just doesn't make sense to have the highly unbalanced 8-count ask the strong balanced hand about his shape.

Not only do I think that it is a huge mistake to relay with this hand, I also think that the space you have reserved for the relays can be better put for other uses.

Okay, I may agree that relaying does not help very much in this case. But I can not see any way, how to say my partner... okay, I have 7 diamonds just with ace (pretty nice value, but no other honeur), I have four clubs (what may be nice fit to your 5 club suit, if you have it) - but just led by the ten, I have void in hearts and another key value - spade ace. All this info is crucial, if partner should decide about the contract.

Eventually, I think that I should decide about the contract, because I know much more about my unbalanced hand, I can ever say my partner during the auction.

[pooltuna]

jdonn, on Sep 21 2010, 01:39 PM, said:

Promise I don't know the hand or the opponents. I'll give you $20 if they are down 800 or more and you give me $10 if they make, and we'll call 200 or 500 a push. Deal? Alternatively we can bet $10 straight up and make 500 a win for you as well, if you prefer.

I concede that the ♥ /♠ slam your way will outscore your likely +200 or 500. (I missed partner's 5♠ call in the OP)

[jahol]

I did not mean the first problem and initiation of discussion about usefulness of relay bidding. I was curious, How many contributors will select diamonds as the trumph suit (with 7-2 guaranteed) and how many clubs...

Normally, the suit with most potential trumphs is selected, but there are many exceptions. Here, the matter is more complicated with pretty weak clubs in the hand... but, on the other hand, two small diamonds in the opposite hand can bring many situations with 5 clubs made and 5 diamonds set...

I do not think, 3NT should be selected as the final contract...

[cloa513]

pooltuna, on Sep 21 2010, 01:35 PM, said:

jdonn, on Sep 21 2010, 01:19 PM, said:

pooltuna, on Sep 21 2010, 01:17 PM, said:

2) Repeat after me 2,5,8,11,14...

I got lost after 2. Or do you think your vulnerable opponents bidding to the 6 level are just insane and have no idea what they are doing? In fact I think it's more likely they make than that they are down more than 1.

I have to question their sanity if I am holding AQ of trump and another A with partner opening the bidding. Of course I recall a hand yesterday against less than stellar opponents....

Scoring: XIMP

Auction
(2♦) 2♠ (3♣) X
all pass

---

with west hand my thoughts were "I LOVE VOLUNTEERS" (i.e. where opponents elect to willingly go down) ...2,5,8,11 bingo

I think you more struck it lucky with that hand that opponents bid badly.

Scoring: XIMP

Auction
(2♦) 2♠ (3♣) X
all pass

---

Which isn't down enough to compensate for missing 4S

[pooltuna]

cloa513, on Sep 23 2010, 08:41 AM, said:

pooltuna, on Sep 21 2010, 01:35 PM, said:

jdonn, on Sep 21 2010, 01:19 PM, said:

pooltuna, on Sep 21 2010, 01:17 PM, said:

2) Repeat after me 2,5,8,11,14...

I got lost after 2. Or do you think your vulnerable opponents bidding to the 6 level are just insane and have no idea what they are doing? In fact I think it's more likely they make than that they are down more than 1.

I have to question their sanity if I am holding AQ of trump and another A with partner opening the bidding. Of course I recall a hand yesterday against less than stellar opponents....
[snip]
with west hand my thoughts were "I LOVE VOLUNTEERS" (i.e. where opponents elect to willingly go down) ...2,5,8,11 bingo

I think you more struck it lucky with that hand that opponents bid badly.

Scoring: XIMP

Auction
(2♦) 2♠ (3♣) X
all pass

---

Which isn't down enough to compensate for missing 4S

unless I am missing something are you saying that 500<420,450,or 480?

[Free]

Agree with Han on both problems.

Problem 1 is where you need to show your hand. For me it's a ♦ transfer followed by 3♥ showing shortness. I won't look after a ♣ fit because I can't. After relaying you know more AND less than you need to know. More because you know about a double fit, less because you don't know anything about values and honour location. You ask us to gamble, while in fact you should ask your partner to evaluate his ♥ holding to know if 3NT is better than 5m. Btw, we could still have slam. ♦K and ♣AKQ and ♠K is only 15HCP and we have grand! Take away 1 of these cards and we still have a small slam.

Problem 2 you failed to show your hand, so we're gambling again.

[whereagles]

Think I'll go for 5♦ on hand 1, though not too happy about it. Seems like the percentage action, though.

On hand 2 I'll bid a very confident 6♠.

[jahol]

Free, on Sep 24 2010, 01:59 AM, said:

Problem 2 you failed to show your hand, so we're gambling again.

Okay, but could I show my hand? 3 spades would have been GF in most natural bidding systems (and I do not think, I have such hand), 3 hearts would have indicated better fit than I actually had and would not have informed about defensive values in minors...