[cnszsun]

As south, i did not bid game with both hands. Wrong judgement?

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3C:7-9points, 4+spades.

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[inquiry]

cnszsun, on 2010-November-08, 20:26, said:

As south, i did not bid game with both hands. Wrong judgement?

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At imps, I would game vulnerable. At matchpoints or not vul at imps, I would bid only 3♠. This is because I think game will still be less than 50%, but willing to have a go for if vul at imps.

cnszsun, on 2010-November-08, 20:26, said:

3C:7-9points, 4+spades.

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I would want to bid 2♠ over 3♣, of course they will not let me. I would never consider 4♠ here.

[Free]

First hand I would bid game. Partner shows a good ♣ suit and I have the K. It's not a general invite based on HCP, it's distributional.

Second hand I would also just signoff in 3♠, missing all Aces it's not even worth a try.

[paulg]

I'd pass on both.

On the first it depends a little on what 2♥ promises. For example, if you are playing some form of Drury then you have already denied prime values and it is a lot closer. But, at the end of the day, if three little trumps and the king of clubs is sufficient for game then I would have expected partner to have bid it already.

[mcphee]

I do not understand your auction on the first hand and why you think you should bid game. 3C is game forcing and I would be most unhappy if partner passed 3H on the bidding shown. If 3C is some imaginary jump shift that is not game forcing you need to advise us you are using different methods.

I would not expect game to be very good on the second example and would hope to make 3S.

[mcphee]

Sorry, 3C was a game try and I think I have the card partner wants and bid game.

[655321]

4♥ on the first, 3♠ on the second.

On the second hand, with a 5431 it is often right to bid game opposite a 4 card raise. This rubbishy hand is not even all bad, QJT of trumps uses only 3HCP to make the trumps solid, and any non-club card partner holds will be useful. The reason I don't bid game is because we have no keycards at all, i.e. partner needs to hold two keycards in his 7-9 else we have four losers off the top (OK, if he has the ♠A, we are on a finesse), but even without four top losers, we still haven't made game yet - we could lose two hearts for example.

Incidentally, for suggestible people like me, wording the question differently would ensure unbiased responses - it reads to me as though game did make on the actual hands, so we are subconsciously swayed towards thinking we might well have bid game. Also vulnerability (diagram shows non-vul?) and form of scoring are always important.

[mtvesuvius]

*echo*

Game on the first, the ♣K is a huge card, and having a doubleton is an added bonus.
3♠ on the second... Opposite even a good constructive raise, I'm not thrilled about game, as 655321 said, partner needs two keycards, and even then game isn't great. 3♦ should be available here as a general game try as well, but I don't think this hand has enough to try that.

[Fluffy]

First hand doesn't look like a real hand, I think I would bid 3♥ game will depend on the usefulness of ♠K and I have no way to find it.

Doubleton club is good, but with ♥432 is not as good.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

#1 depends on the meaning of 3C, if it showes values, the king of clubs will
fit nicely, if it is a help suit trial, say xxx, ..., most likely I would have
signed of as well.
#2 Sometimes you make over tricks, the hand is not strong enough to accept, but
you can make a game trial with 3D - assuming this showes diamond value.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[mikestar13]

With #1 I bid game--I like "conservative invitations, aggressive acceptances." The ♣Kx is golden, the aggression comes in gambling on ♠K. I would do it, with no contrary evidence. But declining the invitation is not unreasonable, especially if partner invites aggressively.

With #2 I decline the invitation, it's not even close. Game must have been a lucky make.

[Siegmund]

As already said, #2 is not close. Bail out.

On #1, it depends some on your style of game tries... if you expect the kings to be worth a trick, and the shortness another trick, you can accept. That'll be the case opposite xxx(x), and opposite Axx(x), but it may not work as well if partner has Q97xx and thought he was going to set up the suit.

In particular, for many people, partner's bid of 3C rather than 2S (or 2NT if youve swapped spades and notrump) sends a clear message "your king, queen, or jack of spades is NOT what I am looking for, I want values in hearts and clubs (and havent said whether diamond values are useful)", and for anybody with that agreement this a clear signoff.

[straube]

I'd decline game on both.

On the first, I play that 3C (hsgt) suggests I should upgrade my hand with fitting honors (which I have) but my trump are weak and partner didn't ask for help in spades (which I have) and my hand is near minimum for a raise (I'd actually make a forcing nt and then bid 2H). Had partner made a GT in spades, I might have bid 3C as a counter GT.

The second hand can make game if partner has a maximum with working cards. i don't have the room/method to find that out.

[ggwhiz]

oops, mis read it.

[pooltuna]

For the first hand IMO the judgment in question is do you trust partner? This assumes of course that 3♣ was essentially a help suit query. Now answer the yes/no question do I have ♣ help? Yes or No. You seem to be answering the yes/no question is partner a moron? And you chose yes.

For the second hand there are probably too many 7-9 point hands for partner to hold to just bid 4♠ if you have a methodology to ask if he has 3 controls below 3♠ you might try that but failing that 3♠ is the odds call IMO.

[gszeszycki]

help suit game tries are a superb game reaching mechanism if properly used.
hand 1 while admittedly i would prefer to have Kxx hearts vs spades what looks like
a minimum raise is surely worth significantly more since the club K is now undervalued at 3 and odds are high I have a club ruff making this hand worth a ton more than just a mere 6 therefore i bid 4s.

Hand 2 it seems right way to go about this is to try a help suit game try and bid 3h
How happy would you be to be in 4s oppsite say Kxxx AQx xxx xxx??? or AKxx Qx xxxx xxx?
even hands like Axxx QJx xxx xxx leave you with at worst a finesse. dont just give up
when there is a NO RISK bid you can make that might get you to a game.

[nige1]

cnszsun, on 2010-November-08, 20:26, said:

As south, i did not bid game with both hands. Wrong judgement?

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3C:7-9points, 4+spades.

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IMO game only on the first hand and only at imps.

[Lurpoa]

Twice 3♥.

On 1st:sign off
On second: game try.