[xxhong]

rduran1216, on 2010-November-15, 12:39, said:

partner is a passed hand, its imps, partner knows I have more leeway to compete if he's a passed hand.

How about when partner has 4 hearts and a 9 count. How are we gonna compete to 3H if I start with 1D?

If it goes p p 1c x 4s and my partner decides to dbl with a 10 count at imps, he's asking for trouble.

I'm ok with 1D or dbl, but would lean towards dbl. Partner is gonna figure out I dont have an opening hand if they bid to game.

I think you should pre-alert your light doubling style if you and your partner have such kind of agreement on very light takeout doubles. Most play take-out doubles to show at least opening values.

[gnasher]

If this isn't a takeout double, I'm sure it's a pass. 1♦ is horribly misdescriptive, and has no preemptive value.

Is it a takeout double? Not really, but maybe we should do it anyway. If we're going to compete, it's more effective to do it straight away rather than letting them exchange information first. If it starts

pass-pass-1♣-pass
1♠-pass-1NT/2♣/2♠

I'll regret not having acted earlier.

The main danger is that partner doubles them at the end of a competitive auction, expecting me to have more defence, but at IMPs he won't be quick on the trigger. Being opposite a passed hand does reduce the risk: partner is less likely either to double them or to overcompete, simply because it is less likely that he has a suitable hand for such action.

Some of the scenarios suggested in this thread seem quite unlikely. Have some of the posters missed that partner and LHO are both passed hands? I can't picture a hand that would pass in first seat, then jump to 4♠ after pass-pass-1♣-dbl. And I don't know anybody that passes balanced 12- or 13-counts.

[mtvesuvius]

When you double:

• You ruin partnership trust
  
• You grossly mis-state your values
  
• Partner will be bidding, and competing, expecting you to have something
  
• Partner may double expecting more than -1 tricks in your hand
  
• There will be more 4 digit numbers on your card, and not all from declaring.

Did I mention that doubling with Ax xxx AQxx xxxx after 1♣ - X - 4♠ is normal?

Even 1♦ probably isn't best, but I'm not convinced it's right to pass.

[ggwhiz]

rduran1216, on 2010-November-15, 12:39, said:

partner is a passed hand, its imps, partner knows I have more leeway to compete if he's a passed hand.

How about when partner has 4 hearts and a 9 count. How are we gonna compete to 3H if I start with 1D?

Compete? You are outgunned. If I double with my pard and this dreck, the over under is -800.

Pass is sane but I've been known to chuck in 1♦.

[kayin801]

Sometimes partner has diamonds too and can preempt? Sometimes opener has a 3316 17 count and the auction goes 1♣-1♦-X-4♦ or he has 4315 and responder bid 1♥? If we pass or X they'll find any major suit fit they had anyway. I don't really think we're getting a plus score on this but some times we can get a better minus than we would, and I think 1♦ is the best way to help us muddle their auction with partner's help while providing the least risk to us.

[OleBerg]

I am not a doubler myself, but

mtvesuvius, on 2010-November-15, 13:51, said:

When you double:

• You ruin partnership trust wrong
• You grossly mis-state your values wrong
• Partner will be bidding, and competing, expecting you to have something And I do
• Partner may double expecting more than -1 tricks in your hand wrong
  
• There will be more 4 digit numbers on your card, and not all from declaring. Right

Did I mention that doubling with Ax xxx AQxx xxxx after 1♣ - X - 4♠ is normal?

Even 1♦ probably isn't best, but I'm not convinced it's right to pass.

All the reds will only be a problem in partnerships without proper agreements (i.e. partner shouldn't do that, if your agreements are that such a hand is an overcall.)

[Free]

Of all the options I have, I like 1♦ the least. If you really want to make opps lives misserable, be a man and jump to 2♦.

[rduran1216]

doubling with that hand isn't normal. If you're staring at that, you know they have a club side suit which they could easily be using. The diamond king is likely to your left, and we may not be getting more than 1 spade trick.

Can I be doubling with 6 diamonds and 4 hearts as an equal level conversion type hand? There are lots of agreements that go into doubling here that are unsaid.

the more I think about it, the more convinced i am that dbl is right.

[rduran1216]

xxhong, on 2010-November-15, 13:06, said:

I think you should pre-alert your light doubling style if you and your partner have such kind of agreement on very light takeout doubles. Most play take-out doubles to show at least opening values.

disagreed. With a 1444 10 count, I'm gonna dbl 1S opposite a passed hand partner without a second thought, as will 95% of the room. We have the shape here to dbl 1C, and we should.

[gnasher]

mtvesuvius, on 2010-November-15, 13:51, said:

Did I mention that doubling with Ax xxx AQxx xxxx after 1♣ - X - 4♠ is normal?

Did anyone mention that the sequence

pass pass 1♣ dbl
4♠

is somewhat abnormal?

[Fluffy]

I find double ridicoulous, 1♦ might work to win a partscore, but it is not very good lead directing so I'd rather pass

[mtvesuvius]

gnasher, on 2010-November-15, 15:46, said:

Did anyone mention that the sequence

pass pass 1♣ dbl
4♠

is somewhat abnormal?

Sorry, missed an original pass. However my other points still stand, and partner still may treat you to have your bid, causing him to do something to give you a bad score.

[nigel_k]

I would not overcall 1♦.

I prefer pass but, like gnasher, I am also tempted by the misleading, unilateral, partnership destroying, 4 digit conceding, gross misstatement of my hand. I wonder how much extra the vilifiers would need for this to be a double? An extra jack would be enough for me.

[pooltuna]

gnasher, on 2010-November-15, 15:46, said:

Did anyone mention that the sequence

pass pass 1♣ dbl
4♠

is somewhat abnormal?

Not for a dog walker.

[andy_h]

I agree with what gnasher and nigel_k have mentioned. I don't love the double but given that it's white at imps with LHO and partner being a passed hand, I'd like to compete right away rather than letting them exchange information and having the need to guess later. Fearing a 4 digit number is just so unlikely/bizarre given that partner's a passed hand and he knows that points isn't everything. As nigel_k mentioned, adding an extra jack would be enough to be an auto double for me, or having a 4450 shape with this 9 count is also enough for me. If my partner passed a 12 or 13 count white in 2nd seat then it's probably time to get a new partner My very close second choice would be to pass in the hopes of competing later (or lack thereof so I'm not disclosing my honours) and I quite dislike 1D.

[P_Marlowe]

mikeh, on 2010-November-15, 11:56, said:

partner playing us for a takeout double hand?

Maybe your partners don't make aggressive decisions based on trusting you to have what you announced. Mine do. And when I don't have them, we pay the price.

I continue to be surprised by posts like yours....partner is a passed hand so we can do whatever we want with impunity. Nonsense.

We have the agreement, that the hand qualifies for a T/O, the hand would not even be
min, so p needs to take this hand into account when making agressive decisions, ...,
playing with a stranger X becomes a lot less attractive, but playing with a stranger
has an advantage as well, he will be wary to trust to make agressive desicions.

With kind regards
Marlowe

PS: And yes, we prealert, not sure, they believe the prealert until they see it in live
action.

[the hog]

Clear pass. By the way, if this were the S suit this overcall would be totally 100% obvious. Overcalling 1D on this, though, gives the opps additional calls.

[mtvesuvius]

P_Marlowe, on 2010-November-16, 01:08, said:

We have the agreement, that the hand qualifies for a T/O, the hand would not even be
min, so p needs to take this hand into account when making agressive decisions, ...,
playing with a stranger X becomes a lot less attractive, but playing with a stranger
has an advantage as well, he will be wary to trust to make agressive desicions.

With kind regards
Marlowe

PS: And yes, we prealert, not sure, they believe the prealert until they see it in live
action.

Let me get this straight... You have an agreement to double on total crap, and partner has to bid accordingly, such as not jumping to the three level with 10 HCP and a 5 card suit? What do you do with a real takeout double? Cuebid? lol

[gnasher]

Why should we mind partner's bidding to the three-level on a 10-count with a five-card suit? AQxxx Kxx xx Jxx is a normal looking 10-count opposite which I'd expect to make 3♠ or show a profit against 3♣. A bigger concern is that he might drive game with that type of hand.

[MrAce]

the hog, on 2010-November-16, 02:51, said:

Clear pass. By the way, if this were the S suit this overcall would be totally 100% obvious. Overcalling 1D on this, though, gives the opps additional calls.

Not even close, it is not clear, and this debate and all replies is the proof that it is not clear.

It is not true either that ♦ overcall helps them. Yes they may make a neg double to show both majors and they may even find a fit (in which case we are happy for not starting with a TO X to give away info about our hand) But pass or DOUBLE is WAY FAR from being alternative for 1♦ overcall to make their bidding more difficult.Even if that was a priority when deciding an overcall or not, which is NOT!

1♣-pass or dbl-1♥-pass-1♠
1♣-pass or dbl-1♠-pass 2[♠ Which one of these seems too hard for opponents to find their major fit, including the beginner level opponents ?

Even for the sake of argument, if we assume that 1♦ is not destructing their bids as good as PASS or DOUBLE (which sounds funny to me, with all the respect) Since when overcall priority dropped from trying to buy the contract or compete and force them to their uncomfortable level, instead of thinking " if i do not bid 1♦ LHO cant show both majors at once and MAYBE if i am lucky enough they miss their 4-4 major fit" Errr..NO.

I am not saying your pass is wrong, it is one of the reasonable options. So is a TO x. More or less. But whichever is your taste, it is not really clear.

1♦ bid, TO X or Pass they all have up and downsides depending on how the auction will proceed after we make one of these choices

EDIT: Just read the concerns about lead, most feared contract that will be played by opponents is 3NT here, ESPECIALLY with our stiff ♣. We know their source of tricks, despite the flaws of my ♦ suit, it is still the best bet for OUR source of tricks to defeat 3 NT. If pd has help in ♦ Hxx or even xxx and he doesn't lead it we will bail a good size swing, if u overcall 1♦ and pd leads from xx, x or whatever and it costs, it is less likely to be a swing since our other suits does not provide enough tricks to defeat 3 NT most of the time. My experiences tell me if we make a passive or slow defense vs this 3 NT, it will fail most of the time.