[Free]

Help me settle an argument, and assign the blame

Imps

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-3 for 800

[mtvesuvius]

I am a big fan of 4 card overcalls, but that's pushing it a bit too far IMO. If I am going to take a call with the South hand, it would be double. North *could* have passed over 1N, but with 4 card support, I really can't give too much blame to North. Overall I would say 75% South, 10% North, 15.1% Unlucky.

[dcohio]

LOL 1♠. Unlucky to go down 3, but thats a sickening disgusting putrid overcall.

[Fluffy]

Both are at fault, but IMO north is completelly insane. With nothing bid nothing, I learnt this the hard way on my junior years and I'll try to follow the advice for the rest of my life.

[hotShot]

North has a normal raise to 2♠, but South has 5 HCP in openers suit (J is wasted), 4333 shape and only ♠K.

South is misshaped and a little weak for his overcall and this time poor bidding is joined by very bad luck.

[TimG]

Can I vote: 75% north; 75% south? 50% doesn't seem to me to do either justice.

The overcall is nuts; north should be happy to know what to lead against 1NT.

[the hog]

The overcall is not "Nuts", but is rather frisky, the spades are a bit weak and the shape is completely wrong. The raise to 2S is 100% normal and I find those decrying it somewhat humorous. To double with the south hand is of course just as silly.

[Siegmund]

Quote

With nothing bid nothing

Good advice. 'Course, from where I sit, it looks like South has no shape and no suit, while North had 4-card support for his partner and a doubleton in the opps' suit.

[TimG]

the hog, on 2010-November-21, 19:52, said:

The overcall is not "Nuts", but is rather frisky, the spades are a bit weak and the shape is completely wrong.

"A bit weak and completely wrong shape" makes it sound rather nutty.

[kayin801]

That might be a questionable 1♠ overcall in 3rd seat white, let alone in 2nd seat red.

North has a normal raise to 2♠ if west passes, but if 1NT is to be believed it definitely feels like we're gonna play in 2♠X if we bid it. I can at least entertain that North didn't listen to the auction and paid for it (even with 5 spades in South's hand this could go for 500), but South's hand doesn't always have to be balanced.

[andy_h]

South 1000%. I personally think overcalling 1S is completely off the charts - you have sooo many possible strains available (spades, hearts, clubs, no trumps) and wanting to show our balanced hand with K10xx at red is beyond words. The alternative is to pass, but bridge is a bidder's game and you would like to get in and out of the auction to find a fit as soon as you can so I find the South's hand an obvious X. Not only is this the most flexible action in finding your best fit, but it also gets you out of the auction at a safely low level.

As for North's 2S I find it a completely normal raise if partner overcalls 1S at red. 4 card support and a ruffing value AND you get to push the auction a level higher, wtp! While it's true that West did show a stopper through the 1NT bid but that doesn't exactly mean we are about to get doubled in 2S...West might have an 8 count with Kxx spades. This also makes it much much tougher on East since East may not be able to distinguish difference of strength if he bids 3C/3D.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

#1 I dont think the suit is good enough for 1S
#2 I would have bid 2S myself, I have 4 trumps,
and I am not 4333, so 2S is fine, at least for
me

=> The bblame goes to the 1S bidder.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[jukmoi]

I dislike both the North and South bidding about equally. The only thing unlucky about this was that both players were overbidding on the same board.

[mgoetze]

So anyway, I guess you play Raptor 1NT overcalls of 1m openings?

[mcphee]

Unable to master the ability of placing the pass card on the table S found a busy bid. N resisted to urge to bid 3S which indeed did not seem to matter when W passed to collect his penalty. I can live with a 4 card o/c, but this is not one of them imho.

[gwnn]

double from South thanks. 2S from North is normal. 1S is sick.

[helene_t]

I think the 2♠ bid is ok. Opposite a normal overcall it should be reasonably safe. And it does tell p that it rates to be safe to lead a spade against a minor suit slam.

The 1♠ overcall is so bad that it's off the scale.

[mikeh]

I've noticed that a lot of players find it impossible to say 'pass' if they have opening values, and S is a victim of that syndrome. I can understand the overcall if at favourable, and especially at mps. But to commit this call red at imps is reckless.

North's call is aggressive as well, but he does possess a ruffing value and Qxxx in trump...he can see that his RHO is probably about to bid 2minor, and he'll wish he'd bid if he passed.

We rarely see ATB posts for partscore battles, but imagine, on another day, NS missing 2♠ and selling out to 2♦, for lose 5......regardless of S's hand, we know N would get a lot of criticism for passing 1N. It is far, far better to bid 2♠ over 1N than to have to contemplate balancing after 2minor gets passed around.

So, for me, S 100%.

[pooltuna]

mtvesuvius, on 2010-November-21, 15:09, said:

I am a big fan of 4 card overcalls, but that's pushing it a bit too far IMO. If I am going to take a call with the South hand, it would be double. North *could* have passed over 1N, but with 4 card support, I really can't give too much blame to North. Overall I would say 75% South, 10% North, 15.1% Unlucky.

while I agree with the X being preferential to 1♠ and an advocate for 4 card overcalls at the one level I cannot find too much fault with 1♠. Getting a 5-0 trump break is mostly just bad luck.

[l milne]

Agree with others that 2♠ is completely normal. 4 trumps, some shape, spades... not raising would be criminal.

I probably wouldn't even double with the South hand. All this talk about getting out of the auction quickly makes me wonder why others don't pass as well. Of course double is a lot better than 1♠, but I still prefer pass to either. The upside seems small and the potential downside, if opps redouble or partner makes an ill-timed competitive bid, is fairly large.