[1eyedjack]

How is the measure of an insult defined? One suggestion might be that the motive of the deliverer is the defining feature. Another might be that it is the effect on the recipient. Much of the time there will be common ground between the two, at which point the question becomes otiose.

If the deliverer had no intention to insult, and either could not reasonably have predicted that it would be received as an insult, or such an interpretation is itself objectively unreasonable, then I would say that no insult has been delivered even if insult is interpreted by the recipient.

However if the deliverer could reasonable have predicted that it would (reasonably) be received as an insult, then whatever his motives to my mind an insult has been delivered.

I would be prepared to give the artist of Piss Christ the benefit of the doubt as regards his motive, but that is not the end of the test in determining whether it was an insult.

[luke warm]

1eyedjack, on 2011-April-13, 05:30, said:

How is the measure of an insult defined?

well said, but you left off a third method - quoting someone who says it is or isn't an insult and attempting to disparge anyone who disagrees with the quote

[PassedOut]

luke warm, on 2011-April-13, 03:57, said:

"opinions vary" - dalton

True, some folks feel insulted whether they have been insulted or not. In the case of the Piss Christ, the art portrays what some "christians" have done to Jesus' message in a way that strikes too close to home.

Here is what the artist has said: Shooting the Klan: An Interview with Andres Serrano

Quote

Coco Fusco: Your use of Catholic symbolism stands out in part because you are operating in a predominantly Protestant context. An attraction to the sensuality and the carnality that you bring out in your Catholic iconography can develop, since Protestant symbolism looks rather pale by comparison. How would it affect your work to be exhibited in a Catholic context?

Andres Serrano: I have always felt that my work is religious, not sacrilegious. I would say that there are many individuals in the Church who appreciate it and who do not have a problem with it. The best place for Piss Christ is in a church. In fact, I recently had a show in Marseilles in an actual church that also functions as an exhibition space, and the work looked great there. I think if the Vatican is smart, someday they'll collect my work.

Thoughtful Christians are not insulted.

[luke warm]

PassedOut, on 2011-April-13, 08:05, said:

Thoughtful Christians are not insulted.

sure... it's only the ignorant, thoughtless ones who are - much like the muslims who were offended by the burning of the koran

[PassedOut]

luke warm, on 2011-April-13, 09:43, said:

sure... it's only the ignorant, thoughtless ones who are - much like the muslims who were offended by the burning of the koran

I agree.

[hrothgar]

luke warm, on 2011-April-13, 09:43, said:

sure... it's only the ignorant, thoughtless ones who are - much like the muslims who were offended by the burning of the koran

If the shoe fits...

[1eyedjack]

hrothgar, on 2011-April-13, 10:37, said:

If the shoe fits...

Throw it at the podium?

[Winstonm]

1eyedjack, on 2011-April-13, 10:44, said:

Throw it at the podium?

President Podium?

[nige1]

PassedOut, on 2011-April-13, 08:05, said:

Thoughtful Christians are not insulted.

Suppose there were an exhibition of photographs of PassedOut's loved ones, daubed in excreta? Would he hail that as inspired art? Some thoughtful people regard "Piss Christ" not as art but insolence.

[mike777]

1) 22 or more chopped off heads....or burned to ugly death....Many more hurt.
2) holy book burned






I await first degree murder charges on hiring hit men to do this.

Agree pastor is a moron or worse....


But can we focus on the 22 murdered and more hurt...really!

[hrothgar]

mike777, on 2011-April-13, 23:24, said:

But can we focus on the 22 murdered and more hurt...really!

Why?

No one disagrees that this was an awful thing...
Do you need to hear people agree with you as some kind of external validation?
Alternatively, do you just get off hearing people insult muslims?

[PassedOut]

nige1, on 2011-April-13, 21:50, said:

Some thoughtful people don't regard "Piss Christ" as art.

Piss Christ is definitely art, and has appeared in plenty of art exhibitions. Like all contemporary art, critics disagree about its quality. That includes art critics who are also Thoughtful Christians.

Here is a discussion between Bill Moyers, Thoughtful Interviewer, and Sister Wendy Beckett, Thoughtful Christian art critic:

Quote

Moyers: Were you not offended when you looked at Andres Serrano’s Piss Christ? Didn’t you find that denigrating of the simple figure of your faith?

Beckett: Well actually, no, because I thought he was saying, in a rather simplistic magazine-y type of way, that this is what we are doing to Christ. We’re not treating him with reverence. His great sacrifice is not used. We live very vulgar lives. We put Christ in a bottle of urine.

Some people don't want to confront that reality, so try to suppress it. Art history is replete with examples of suppression.

[nige1]

Chill Hrothgar! Nobody questions your preeminence at gratuitous insolence. You are the undisputed 10-dan. Respect!

[hrothgar]

nige1, on 2011-April-14, 07:15, said:

Chill Hrothgar! Nobody questions your preeminence at gratuitous insolence. You are the undisputed 10-dan. Respect!

Methinks you might want to familiarize yourself with the definition of the word "gratuitous".
To quote Inigo Montoya: "I do not think it means what you think it means"

There are some very clear patterns to my posting history:

1. Many of my posts involve personal insults, mockery, and the like.
2. Said posts are directed at a relatively small number of indivuals.
3. I would argue that this posting style is perfectly warranted based on the previous behaviour of said individuals

Over the years, my responses to your own posts have become considerably less polite.
However, I would argue that this behaviour is not "Uncalled for; lacking good reason; unwarranted" and therefore, not gratuitious.

You are a broken record, spewing forth the same inane rant month after month.
No one agrees with you. No one cares. And yet you persist...
(You're actually admirable, in your own delusion sort of way. Which is not to say that I don't wish that you'd shut up and leave)

What has really pushed me over the edge is your more recent habit of misquoting me and other members of the forum and pretending that we agree with your bizarre notions. I understand how frustrating it must be not to get any validation what so ever. I understand why this might cause some kind of psychotic break. But its still very very annoying to be misattributed.

What makes this even more ridiculous is that I actually agree with some of what you have to say.

I long advocated that alert systems should be based on devations from a "standard" system. I believe that this approach, used in conjunction with a well developed training system is the most effective way to communicate relevent information. Where we differ - and we differ sharply - is whether these regulations should be enshrined into the Laws and whether the same standard system should be used across the world.

And, of course, we seem to differ on whether this should be elevated to the level of a religious crusade...

[nige1]

hrothgar, on 2011-April-14, 07:51, said:

Methinks you might want to familiarize yourself with the definition of the word "gratuitous".
To quote Inigo Montoya: "I do not think it means what you think it means"

IMO, the original post demonstrates why deliberately insulting and provocative behaviour is rarely warranted

hrothgar, on 2011-April-14, 07:51, said:

There are some very clear patterns to my posting history:

1. Many of my posts involve personal insults, mockery, and the like.
2. Said posts are directed at a relatively small number of indivuals.
3. I would argue that this posting style is perfectly warranted based on the previous behaviour of said individuals

Over the years, my responses to your own posts have become considerably less polite.
However, I would argue that this behaviour is not "Uncalled for; lacking good reason; unwarranted" and therefore, not gratuitious.

You are a broken record, spewing forth the same inane rant month after month.
No one agrees with you. No one cares. And yet you persist...
(You're actually admirable, in your own delusion sort of way. Which is not to say that I don't wish that you'd shut up and leave)

What has really pushed me over the edge is your more recent habit of misquoting me and other members of the forum and pretending that we agree with your bizarre notions. I understand how frustrating it must be not to get any validation what so ever. I understand why this might cause some kind of psychotic break. But its still very very annoying to be misattributed.

What makes this even more ridiculous is that I actually agree with some of what you have to say.

I long advocated that alert systems should be based on devations from a "standard" system. I believe that this approach, used in conjunction with a well developed training system is the most effective way to communicate relevent information. Where we differ - and we differ sharply - is whether these regulations should be enshrined into the Laws and whether the same standard system should be used across the world.

And, of course, we seem to differ on whether this should be elevated to the level of a religious crusade...

Thank you, Sancho

[nige1]

PassedOut, on 2011-April-14, 06:34, said:

Some people don't want to confront that reality, so try to suppress it. Art history is replete with examples of suppression.

IMO, helene_t is right about defending freedom of expression.but we must recognise the obvious: art-appreciation is subjective. IMO, it has more to do with emotion than rational thought. To some, "Piss Christ" is not art. Just as racist, sexist, and religious jokes may be less amusing to those that they seem to pillory.

[kenberg]

I don't look to nuns, or other religious folks, for guidance on much of anything so it would be inconsistent if I suddenly took one of them as a source of knowledge for the arts. But I must ask, when she says "We live very vulgar lives. We put Christ in a bottle of urine." is she including herself in that "we"? I would rather she didn't speak for me on this issue. I guess she can speak for the artist if it's ok by him. My general experience is that when my cultural betters speak of how "we lead very vulgar lives" they actually intend "we" to mean "you". I don't particularly deny it, I would just rather "fess up" without her help.

As to the art itself, it seems juvenile. But than maybe the artist has the same view of Fermat's Last Theorem. As the old joke goes, it's all in the way you were brought up.

[PassedOut]

kenberg, on 2011-April-14, 16:39, said:

As to the art itself, it seems juvenile. But than maybe the artist has the same view of Fermat's Last Theorem. As the old joke goes, it's all in the way you were brought up.

From a business perspective, the Piss Christ is great art. The publicity raised the value of all of Serrano's art considerably. This development was as predictable as what happened after the burning of the Quran.

[Winstonm]

mike777, on 2011-April-13, 23:24, said:

1) 22 or more chopped off heads....or burned to ugly death....Many more hurt.
2) holy book burned






I await first degree murder charges on hiring hit men to do this.

Agree pastor is a moron or worse....


But can we focus on the 22 murdered and more hurt...really!

In response:

Quote

Death tolls are given by historians such as Will Durant, who, in The Reformation (1957), cites Juan Antonio Llorente, General Secretary of the Inquisition from 1789 to 1801, as estimating that 31,912 people were executed from 1480-1808. He also cites Hernando de Pulgar, a secretary to Queen Isabella, as estimating 2,000 people were burned before 1490.

Why can't we talk instead about the continued worthiness to society of the magical, mystical, fairytale-like belief systems that are the basis for all these assorted actions and reactions?

[kenberg]

PassedOut, on 2011-April-14, 18:15, said:

From a business perspective, the Piss Christ is great art. The publicity raised the value of all of Serrano's art considerably. This development was as predictable as what happened after the burning of the Quran.

We are in complete agreement on this!

The man was not trying to insult religion, he was not trying to make a deep statement, he was trying to get his name in the papers and raise the price of his paintings. Andy Warhol Lives.