[masse24]

Playing 2/1 with a P/U partner...

Bidding proceeds:

1♥ - (P) - 1♠ - (P)
2♥ - (P) - 3♦ - (P)
3♥ - (P) - 4NT-(P)
5♣ - (P) - 5♥

How many ♠'s does responder show?

I ask because a player at the table stated an opinion I was not in agreement with. Just looking for confirmation on my understanding of 2/1.
(Hey I know there are lots of variations with many bells and whistles, just looking for standard)

For what it's worth, responder had a huge hand...so, GF values.

[mike777]

I think responder will often have at least 4 spades.

[aguahombre]

At the point where responder bid 3♦, he was prepared for you to think he had five spades.

Of course, at this juncture it does not matter. He has wooded for hearts and signed off in 5♥. In a few seconds, you will find out.

But on this auction, since opener has shown seven hearts, it is expected for responder to have 5-3-4-1, or 5-2-5-1. Opener has shown nothing other than an opening bid with a seventh heart; responder would have Wooded last round with other distributions. Actually, he could even hold a stiff honor in hearts.

Responder should not have longer diamonds than spades, whether playing 2/1 or not.

[P_Marlowe]

#1 exactly 5 spades, you can water down "exactly" a bit, but I
would expect responder to bid 3S with a 6 carder, at least,
if he is 6-4
#2 usually 4 diamonds, but 3D may be based on only a 3 card fragment
- depends on the rest of your system
#3 reponder showed a GF hand

Having read the responses - I guess a strong bal. hand with 4432
is possible.
Although with 4432 an 13-15/16, the bid would be 3NT instead of 3D,
so it would need to be at least +16/17.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[masse24]

Quote

#1 exactly 5 spades, you can water down "exactly" a bit, but I
would expect responder to bid 3S with a 6 carder, at least,
if he is 6-4
With kind regards
Marlowe

Responder can't be 4/4 in ♠'s & ♦'s?

[Mbodell]

I don't believe in promising things in bridge bidding. Responder has 5+ spades 98.5+% of the time.

But I think responder could well have 4 spades if he's 4=1=4=4. Some folks think that hand should always bid 3♣ instead of 3♦, but I'm not sure that's always true. A hand like KJxx J AKJx Kxxx might well bid this way.

4=2=4=3 is also possible, but with only 44 in the pointed and 2 in hearts some would bid 3 hearts instead of diamonds, but if 2♥ didn't promise 6 but was the default normal noise then maybe with 2 weak hearts and 4 good diamonds they'd want to see what happens.

[mike777]

guys pard does not promise 5s I thought op wondered if he had at least 4

[Phil]

Playing with a forum genii I would expect five spades; maybe even 6.

Playing with anyone else I would expect 4 a lot of the time.

[P_Marlowe]

masse24, on 2011-June-06, 23:55, said:

Responder can't be 4/4 in ♠'s & ♦'s?

Maybe, maybe not, but opener already denied 4 clubs / 4 diamonds,
so the intend of bidding 3D cant be finding a 4-4 fit in a minor.

Responder needs either to generate a GF seq., and for that bids a
fragment, or he wants to show a 5th spade.

If responder is bal. he should show his shape by bidding NT, and if
he is 4441 with a singleton hearts - bidding NT is also a real option.

As I said, responder may have a bal. hand with +16/17HCP, and thinks he
is too strong to bid 3NT, since bidding 3NT will end the auction, so he
may try to get another bid from p.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Bbradley62]

"Promises"? 4.

[masse24]

The hand here:

♠JT83
♥KQ
♦AK43
♣KQ3

As I stated mentioned, no fancy bells and whistles. No artificial 2♣'s with relays etc.
The choices were 1♠ and 2♦.

Since then, I have asked two World Class players and have given the them the full hand, asking, "What is your first bid?"

Both replied 1♠...

I understand the 2♦ camp...and do not completely disagree, as a matter of fact, I rather like it, setting up the GF immediately but not denying a 4 card ♠ suit.
But the choice of 1♠ does not "Promise" 5 pieces...........DOES IT?

[mgoetze]

masse24, on 2011-June-07, 06:51, said:

Since then, I have asked two World Class players and have given the them the full hand, asking, "What is your first bid?"

Maybe you should have asked them their second bid, as well.

And you definitely ought to use less formatting in your posts.

[Free]

masse24, on 2011-June-06, 22:30, said:

Playing 2/1 with a P/U partner...
~snip~
How many ♠'s does responder show?

None, it's a pickup partner. He might think we're playing kaplan inversion, he might be psyching, he might have misclicked, he might have mixed up ♠ with ♣,...

With the hand given, it's a normal 1♠ response. The only alternative is something slightly fancy (2♣). I don't like 2♦ because 1M-2♦ is usually a good 5 card suit which we don't have.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

masse24, on 2011-June-07, 06:51, said:

The hand here:

♠JT83
♥KQ
♦AK43
♣KQ3

As I stated mentioned, no fancy bells and whistles. No artificial 2♣'s with relays etc.
The choices were 1♠ and 2♦.

Since then, I have asked two World Class players and have given the them the full hand, asking, "What is your first bid?"

Both replied 1♠...

I understand the 2♦ camp...and do not completely disagree, as a matter of fact, I rather like it, setting up the GF immediately but not denying a 4 card ♠ suit.
But the choice of 1♠ does not "Promise" 5 pieces...........DOES IT?

Correct... 1♠ promises at least 4, but does not promise 5+ ..

Playing 2/1 GF, I would Respond 2♦! with that hand.... and 2♦ promises at least 4 but does not promise 5+ .. ( and does not deny 4 cards ♠ ) .

This way you avoid Responder's rebid problems if Opener rebids 2♥... as in this case.

[mgoetze]

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2011-June-07, 07:40, said:

and 2♦ promises at least 4 but does not promise 5+ .. ( and does not deny 4 cards ♠ ) .

I cannot disagree with the exact wording of your post but I would be quick to amend that a 2♦ bid followed by a 2♠ rebid surely does promise 5 diamonds in "bog-standard 2/1".

Personally, I very much prefer that 2♦ promise 5+ diamonds regardless of the number of spades held.

[whereagles]

3♦ usually shows 5 spades and 3+ diamonds. Occasionally, it may have only 4 spades if the hand is very strong (the case ere).

Over 3♥ responder can either be optimistic and bid 4NT or be more conservative with 4♥. Anything else risks being misunderstood, so it's better not to temp fate.

[aguahombre]

I sometimes forget the influence of J2N on expectations.

This responding hand is tough in any style; here 4NT with JXXX in spades was not pretty, and presumed to be RKC for hearts.

We would have available the old-fashion plan of:

1H-2N (nat)
3N-4N (quant)

But, the plan would be interupted with some other rebid than 3N, so 4D/3H in this case would work out --a cue, having already shown a balanced hand, and therefore 18+. With this start, opener can cue the spade ace (void) or, with a stiff spade can Wood from his hand for hearts.

Whatever style is in use, the 1S response would be ok if we have a 4-4 spade fit, but is dreadfully unprepared for opener not having a spade fit.

This post has been edited by aguahombre: 2011-June-07, 09:20

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

with the reponding hand you gave

#1 1S is clear cut, with 4-4 you respond up the line.
#2 After 2H from opener, you have a 6-2 fit in hearts and min. 30HCP between you,
make it 28/29, if you want to include shapely openers, so slam is a real option.
If you bid 3D, you can bet on opener to respond 3H, he can have QJx in clubs at best,
what else is he supposed to bid.
So instead of 3D, 3C gives opener more room, ..., wont help you a lot here.
Just keep this in mind, try to think, what options p has, and what his likely
answer is - if you take this as a lesson from this pair of hands, you will
have learned a lot.
Without lots of bells and whistles, bid 4NT, or give up on slam and bid 4H.
If you dont have lots of agreement, you need to bid simplistic, and in the slam
zone this means, if you have a fit and you have the power, than bid the slam, i.e.
check for Key cards with 4NT or make a quantitative invite with 5H.

Trying to construct a scientific auction without a reliable agreement set is futile.
5H of course is a futil attemp to construct a scientific auction.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[mike777]

Prefer 2d

Prefer to live with the possible issues of only 4d.

agree 2d then 2s shows 5-4.

--


fwiw I play after 2d...

2h promises 6 not some minimum 5
2s or 3c is 5h-4 but does not promise extras.

[Vampyr]

mike777, on 2011-June-07, 09:04, said:

fwiw I play after 2d...

2h promises 6 not some minimum 5
2s or 3c is 5h-4 but does not promise extras.

It seems to me that if you are going to play 2/1GF you might as well take advantage of its good points, such as the ability to shape out, but it seems that a lot of practitioners play that 2♠, 3♣ and even 2NT (when already playing a strong NT) promise extra values. I'd be interested in learning which approach is standard and would be assumed with a pick-up partner.