[Antrax]

What is a 1NT (15-17) opening followed by stayman, 2♥ response and responder bidding 2♠? Partner wants this to be a weak hand with diamonds and 5+ spades (a sort of garbage stayman variant), which sounds rare and solvable by a ♠ transfer, yet I don't see a better meaning for this bid. What do you play it as?

[paulg]

Most popular in my area is an invitational hand with four spades. It is non-forcing. This is normally in the context of four-suit transfers where Stayman is the only way to invite game and so 1N-2C-2H-2NT shows an invite without a four-card major.

Garozzo's Ambra system uses this sequence to show five spades in an invitational hand with 2NT promising four. The corollary is that 1NT-2C-2D-2S shows the same hand, so five spades and 8/9 HCP opposite a strong 1NT. You can use garbage stayman but always 'sign off' with two hearts if opener denies a major. I strongly prefer this method to the one that is more popular in my locality

[mike777]

1nt=2c
2h=2s( invite with 4s)

This is a very very common sequence...pls do not reinvent.

[Antrax]

We play that version of garbage stayman (responder bidding 2♥ over 2♦ to show weak 4-4 in majors, opener corrects if he has doubleton hearts) and currently no four suit transfers. What I don't understand is why not transfer to spades and rebid 2NT if you have an invitational hand with five spades.

[mike777]

Antrax, on 2011-July-18, 01:28, said:

We play that version of garbage stayman (responder bidding 2♥ over 2♦ to show weak 4-4 in majors, opener corrects if he has doubleton hearts) and currently no four suit transfers. What I don't understand is why not transfer to spades and rebid 2NT if you have an invitational hand with five spades.

no

[paulg]

Antrax, on 2011-July-18, 01:28, said:

What I don't understand is why not transfer to spades and rebid 2NT if you have an invitational hand with five spades.

This is not a sequence where I have really strong views, but it feels that it is more likely that we'll have a 5-3 spade fit rather than a 4-4 spade fit when the 1NT opener holds four hearts. Therefore when we are minimum we'll play a level lower.

[Antrax]

mike777, I'm not sure I understand what you're saying and editing posts after publishing them only makes it more confusing. Since we don't play 4-way transfers, stayman means we have at least one four card major, so 2NT by responder implies four cards in the other major.

[the hog]

Antrax, on 2011-July-18, 02:03, said:

mike777, I'm not sure I understand what you're saying and editing posts after publishing them only makes it more confusing. Since we don't play 4-way transfers, stayman means we have at least one four card major, so 2NT by responder implies four cards in the other major.

So if opener is minimum with 4S you have forced the bidding to 3S. With Mike's version opener would pass 2S with a minimum hand.

[Cyberyeti]

mike777, on 2011-July-18, 01:28, said:

1nt=2c
2h=2s( invite with 4s)

This is a very very common sequence...pls do not reinvent.

But by no means universal.

We use it as a hand of slam invitational strength which may or may not have spades but certainly has one or more 4+ card minor suit, partner bids a 4+ card minor with the aim of finding 6m where it's better than 6N. We don't play 4 suit transfers so it's useful for good 4M/5m hands. We use 1N-2♣-2♦/♠-3♥ in vaguely similar fashion.

[Antrax]

Is it worth the loss of the "drop dead" 2♠ bid and wrongsiding the 4♠ contract if opener is max?
[edit]
In reply to the hog

[Hanoi5]

minor-suits stayman.

[Antrax]

Hanoi5, what's 1NT-2♠ then?

[Cyberyeti]

Antrax, on 2011-July-18, 04:05, said:

Hanoi5, what's 1NT-2♠ then?

Maybe he plays 4 suit transfers, we play 2♠ as WTO in either minor or GF with both, and 1N-2N natural.

[Hanoi5]

Whether you play four-suit xfers or 1N-2♠ minor suit stayman, 2♠ after a red suit answer to stayman asks for holdings in the minors. If opener shows only spades to stayman then 3♥ is minor suit stayman.

[P_Marlowe]

Antrax, on 2011-July-18, 01:28, said:

We play that version of garbage stayman (responder bidding 2♥ over 2♦ to show weak 4-4 in majors, opener corrects if he has doubleton hearts) and currently no four suit transfers. What I don't understand is why not transfer to spades and rebid 2NT if you have an invitational hand with five spades.

A possible logical meaning is, that 2S showes 4 hearts and 5 spades and inv. strength.
With 5 hearts and 4 spades and inv. strength, you make the transfer followed by bidding 2S.

This is all in the context of garbage stayman.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Antrax]

P_Marlowe, isn't it better to play in a 4-4 fit than a 5-3 fit?

[P_Marlowe]

Antrax, on 2011-July-18, 07:12, said:

P_Marlowe, isn't it better to play in a 4-4 fit than a 5-3 fit?

Although I dont understand the relation of the question to the currently
discussed point, yes, most of the time the 4-4 will be better, since, you
have the choice to decide on which side you want to generate add. tricks
via ruffs, there are of course counter examples, and 5-3 fits can easilier
cope with 4-1 breaks.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[semeai]

Some possible meanings:

1) Invitational with 4 spades

This is necessary if 2NT doesn't show 4 spades. It has the added benefit of playing 2S when partner declines an invite and has 4 spades. Partner can also choose sometimes to play 2S in a 4-3 fit instead of 2NT. It has the detriment of wrongisding the contract sometimes.

2) Invitational with 5+ spades

This has the benefit of playing 2S instead of 3S when partner would decline an invitation (1N-2H;2S-2N/3S). Partner can also choose sometimes to play 2S instead of 2N with a 5-2 fit (which he could not do after 1N-2H;2S-2N). It has the detriment of wrongsiding the contract sometimes.

3) Garbage stayman with clubs and 4 spades.

Over 2D, you bid 2S as well.

4) Garbage stayman with diamonds and 4 spades.

Over 2D, you pass.

5) Garbage stayman with short hearts.

I don't recall wanting to bid one of these 3 sorts of garbage stayman. Maybe playing a weak notrump they'd be more valuable. I usually play 1 or 2 depending on the meaning of 2NT.

Hanoi5, on 2011-July-18, 05:45, said:

Whether you play four-suit xfers or 1N-2♠ minor suit stayman, 2♠ after a red suit answer to stayman asks for holdings in the minors. If opener shows only spades to stayman then 3♥ is minor suit stayman.

Maybe the former is playable, but the latter doesn't really make sense to me as it's so high with so little room below 3NT. Also, I like to play 1NT-2M;3oM as a slammish raise to 4M.

[han]

In the USA it is considered standard to play 2S as invitational with exactly 4 spades.

In the Netherlands I've first played it as a relay (asking about opener's exact shape) and I now play it as invitational with 5 spades.

[Phil]

Invitational with 5 spades is my preferred meaning. Playing this allows re-transfers after Jacoby transfers since all of the hands are covered.