[bd71]

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1. Specific question - Is 2♠ here showing a big hand with spades (too strong to overcall), or is it just competitive?

2. General question(s) - How can partner distinguish between the monster hands and hands where you just want to compete? Can we only be competing in partner's suit, or would we ever bid a new suit just to compete to the next level?

[MrAce]

bd71, on 2011-August-16, 21:39, said:

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1. Specific question - Is 2♠ here showing a big hand with spades (too strong to overcall), or is it just competitive?

2. General question(s) - How can partner distinguish between the monster hands and hands where you just want to compete? Can we only be competing in partner's suit, or would we ever bid a new suit just to compete to the next level?

1- Yes it shows exactly what u hold. Strong hand, stronger than the top range of your overcall structure. This range vary for people but in general 1 level overcalls are apprx. 8-16(17) 2 levels are (9)10-16(17).

2-If you start DBL and then bid a new suit over pd's pass or over his simple responses, you are strong, period. If you had a weaker hand and wanted to just compete, you should have then started with overcall at the first place.

Although some may argue that pd's 2♦ was not forced, he would never bid it without your DBL, he has expectations. Of course he should not have a hopeless hand but non forced 2♦ here is nowhere close to a jump 3♦ bid which is non forcing too.For example i would definetely bid 2♦ with x xxxx KJxxxx xx

There is an exception to your question #1, which is called ELC (equal level conversion) but i find it very harmful to play for players less than adv+ or expert level. In fact i would not recommend any high level treatments without knowing why you need it by your own playing experience. But you are on right track and asking the right questions, such as "Competitive or strong ? " "How do we know pd has which.."

[daveharty]

Agree with MrAce. Also, the reason one makes a takeout double is either to solicit partner's opinion about the best strain to play in, OR to show the big hand. With a hand that wanted simply to suggest playing in spades and didn't have lots of extras, you would have just overcalled 1S. Partner's 2D bid doesn't preclude playing in spades, either; the auction is still live, so if 2H gets passed around to partner with say, 6 diamonds and 4 spades, he can still balance with 2S.

[bd71]

MrAce, on 2011-August-16, 22:55, said:

2-If you start DBL and then bid a new suit over pd's pass or over his simple responses, you are strong, period.

I did not think it was this clearcut, but am willing to be corrected. Suppose in this hand I had something like 3154 shape with 12-13 HCP...should I not be competing to 3D in that situation?

This issue arose because partner held (approximate) Qxx xxx KJxxx Tx, the bidding continued after the 2♠ with 3♥ from one of the opponents (can't recall which) and 3♠ by me which is passed out. 3♠ making 6 with K♣ onside.

I thought partner could have raised to game. He thought I might just have been competing for the partscore. I thought that in this instance it should be clear I would have a strong spade hand (any hand that merely wanted to compete would have bid 1♠ or 2♠).

However, I did think there are situations where further bidding by a takeout doubler would just be competitive...but probably only if I was raising partner's suit after interference.

So with all that as background...is it truly so clearcut that 100% of bids after a TO X show a monster, or are there some situations where it is just competitive?

[blackshoe]

Raising partner's suit does not show a strong hand. Bidding a new suit shows a strong hand. Bidding NT shows a balanced hand too strong to overcall 1NT. So raising partner is competitive (to force, bid the opponent's suit). Everything else is strong (including, I believe, a repeat double).

[Phil]

Disagree with the previous posters. While I don't disagree that 2♠ shows a good hand it does not show a 6th spade. So 3♠ for me.

[daveharty]

Phil, on 2011-August-17, 09:04, said:

Disagree with the previous posters. While I don't disagree that 2♠ shows a good hand it does not show a 6th spade. So 3♠ for me.

I find this really interesting. While I agree that 2S doesn't guarantee six spades, I have never heard of a non-jump new suit rebid by doubler denying a sixth card.

[MrAce]

Phil, on 2011-August-17, 09:04, said:

Disagree with the previous posters. While I don't disagree that 2♠ shows a good hand it does not show a 6th spade. So 3♠ for me.

Wow. Did you really say this or did you mean "this hand's value + 6th♠+♠ texture can be showned by 3♠ better" ? If so i have no objection and i actually like it.

But if u meant what you wrote, I DBL you ! you are plain wrong imo. 2♠ does not deny 6th ♠. In fact first time i heard this.

[gwnn]

"It does not show 6" is not the same as "it shows exactly 5".

[Phil]

Thanks Gwnn.

Yes, MrAce, I bid 3♠ to show the overcall texture of the hand and the 6th spade, which 2♠ does not promise.

[daveharty]

gwnn, on 2011-August-18, 03:05, said:

"It does not show 6" is not the same as "it shows exactly 5".

I realize this, but my initial reading of Phil's wording was that he was suggesting that trump length was the determining factor in the 2S/3S decision. My mistake.

Phil, do you have any way to quantify this? I am used to playing a style where double-and-bid shows just about any hand from "a little too strong for a simple overcall" up to "just short of a game force". I like heavier simple overcalls than a lot of people, so this range isn't as great for me as it might be, but I can see how this still isn't optimal. Is partner expected to raise your double-and-jump suit with any hint of a cover card or ruffing value? Or, is the OP's hand an exceptional case because partner has already shown some values, so you are just showing a beefier-than-minimum hand (with a 6th spade)?

[neilkaz]

I agree with Phil here about bidding 3♠. This hand is an absolute monster of playing strength, even though the K♣ is often offside. PD's 2♦ bid was a free bid so he should have a little something and I expect game to be a big favorite, especially if he has any help at all in ♠.

.. neilkaz ..

[MrAce]

Phil, on 2011-August-18, 09:29, said:

Thanks Gwnn.

Yes, MrAce, I bid 3♠ to show the overcall texture of the hand and the 6th spade, which 2♠ does not promise.

English is not my native language, so i will let u slip with this (Joke m8)

However, even what u just wrote above is insufficient to bid 3♠ IMO. Make this hand 6223 6313 with same 6 card ♠ and same texture and same hcps, it is not even close to jump to 3♠ imo.

AKT987
xx
Ax
AQJ

AKT987
xxx
A
AQJ

[Phil]

Do you think the texture of these hands is the same as the OP's?

If no, then we agree.

[MrAce]

Phil, on 2011-August-18, 16:54, said:

Do you think the texture of these hands is the same as the OP's?

If no, then we agree.

Actually i gave u ♠7 instead of 6.

Perhaps i use the word texture as "Spots" and the word "shape" for disribution. I maybe wrong on this.

[blackshoe]

I don't know about anybody else, but I certainly didn't say that 2♠ shows a sixth spade, much less that it "promises" one. If the argument is that some hands with six spades are sufficient strong that they should be shown with a jump, I won't disagree with that, although I also think that some hands with six spades aren't good enough for that.

IOW, for me, double and bid a new suit shows at least 5 cards in the suit.

[Zelandakh]

I learned that the jump shows something like an Acol 2 while the simple new suit is generally like the top range of an opening 1 bid (but can be stronger). And with a stronger hand to cue bid. My understanding is also that "suit texture" refers to what MrAce calls texture above whilst "hand texture" is what Phil wrote ("texture of the hand") and refers to the hand as a whole. It seems to me difficult to strongly criticise either 2S or 3S - the hand qualifies for both and it is thus more a matter of style imho. On balance I think 3S gets the message of the hand across best but I would only bid 2S with some partners as a KISS tactic.

[cherdano]

Phil, on 2011-August-17, 09:04, said:

Disagree with the previous posters. While I don't disagree that 2♠ shows a good hand it does not show a 6th spade. So 3♠ for me.

daveharty, on 2011-August-17, 13:42, said:

I find this really interesting. While I agree that 2S doesn't guarantee six spades, I have never heard of a non-jump new suit rebid by doubler denying a sixth card.

I understood Phil's post as saying "I would bid 2♠ here with the same high-card and spot cards and 5224/5134 or similar shape. The actual hand is so much stronger for playing in spades that I don't want to make the same bid."

This makes sense to me, though I don't agree with it. Partner's 2♦ bid showed values, which makes my 2♠ bid forcing. (Double-and-bid after partner showed some values is always forcing.)
I can bid 2♠ and rebid a non-forcing 3♠, which shows the 6th spade and is non-forcing, whereas I would take a direct jump to 3♠ as game-forcing. I don't think I should game-force with this hand, especially as we will often have 2 club losers.

[Vampyr]

cherdano, on 2011-August-23, 09:19, said:

Partner's 2♦ bid showed values, which makes my 2♠ bid forcing. (Double-and-bid after partner showed some values is always forcing.)

Partner didn't necessarily show much in the way of values; it's not as if you doubled and partner had jumped. There does not seem to be room, really, for partner to have anything in high cards -- he may have a near bust with a 5-card diamond suit.