[xx1943]

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This was the question of one of my partners:
"Knowing that partner holds 5 cards in the ♠-suit does the raise show 4-card-support?"
What is the difference between double and 2♠?

Thanks for your answers

[BunnyGo]

xx1943, on 2011-September-03, 00:18, said:

"Knowing that partner holds 5 cards in the ♠-suit does the raise show 4-card-support?"

no, you can raise with 3 card support here.

Quote

What is the difference between double and 2♠?

2♠ shows support, and (I believe) double is penalty oriented.

[helene_t]

Yeah support doubles do not apply here. You could play it as a flexible, offense-oriented hand, say 2236 or 2245. Or something like Ax-xxx-AQx-AKJxx.

[mgoetze]

helene_t, on 2011-September-03, 02:37, said:

You could play it as a flexible, offense-oriented hand, say 2236 or 2245.

That's what double would mean for me.

On the actual hand, I bid 3♥, which should show a constructive spade raise.

[xx1943]

mgoetze, on 2011-September-03, 02:57, said:

On the actual hand, I bid 3♥, which should show a constructive spade raise.

If you bid 3♥ with this hand,
1) what is your bid holding a long trick taking ♣ suit, if you want pd ask to bid 3NT with stopper,
2) How do you show 15-17 or even 18-19 HCP with 3136 distrubution and 3 small ♠?

[helene_t]

mgoetze, on 2011-September-03, 02:57, said:

On the actual hand, I bid 3♥, which should show a constructive spade raise.

I think you would also bid 3♥ on something like Ax-xx-Ax-AKQxxxx. So while 3♥ tends to show spade support it doesn't quite promise it.

A strong hand with both minors could bid 3♦ forcing, here. If the opening bid had been 1♦ then the cuebid would become more nebulous as 3♣ now would be nonforcing so a 19-count with 5-5 in the minors would cuebid.

Quote

2) How do you show 15-17 or even 18-19 HCP with 3136 distrubution and 3 small ♠?

I think Michael's point is that this hand qualifies as 15-17. With 18-19 you could start with the cuebid and then raise partner's sign-off to game.

[mgoetze]

helene_t, on 2011-September-03, 04:22, said:

I think Michael's point is that this hand qualifies as 15-17.

Right, 2♠ is definitely a massive underbid. I would play 3♠ as more preemptive but if 3♠ is fully invitational for you then go ahead and bid that instead.

[mcphee]

If your partnership is playing support doubles, the support double has nothing to do with how many trumps your partner holds, it TELLS about how many trumps you have.

[Hanoi5]

It is always better for the partnership to know whether they hold 8 or 9 (or 10) trumps, especially if the bidding is competitive.

As to the value of the hand, it does look very strong for a single raise so maybe 3♠ is better.

[VM1973]

I'll double because I think that's what I'm supposed to do (having agreed to play support doubles), not because I feel strongly about that action.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

mgoetze, on 2011-September-03, 02:57, said:

That's what double would mean for me.

On the actual hand, I bid 3♥, which should show a constructive spade raise.

I'm sorry, but a cuebid by OPENER is a general force and does NOT promise support for Responder's suit. [ EDIT: How often have you chided others for misrepresenting something as "standard" ? ]. First priority is asking for a "stop" for 3NT ( a la xx1943 ).

[ It is not the same as a cuebid by Responder, which promises support for Opener's suit ] .

This post has been edited by TWO4BRIDGE: 2011-September-03, 07:58

[wyman]

helene_t, on 2011-September-03, 02:37, said:

Yeah support doubles do not apply here. You could play it as a flexible, offense-oriented hand, say 2236 or 2245. Or something like Ax-xxx-AQx-AKJxx.

Agree 100%.

Although I have played against pairs (I think 2 ever) that play support doubles here, it's very very far from standard to do so, and if you agree "support doubles" with partner, you've agreed to do so in situations where partner has shown a 4cM.

On the actual hand, I'd bid 3S if it's invitational; this seems too good for 2S. If I play a style where 3S is minimal with 4S, obviously I won't do that, and I'll bid 3H.

You can bid 3H on a variety of hands, including your solid-clubs hand looking for a stopper, and a good spade raise. Partner's first priority should be to show a H stopper. If partner doesn't have one, we can rebid clubs with clubs, or we can pass/raise partner's spade raise with the appropriate hand. With 18-19 balanced with no heart stopper and 3 small spades, I'd bid 4S (unless I thought I might want to play 3N, in which case I might bid 3H then 4S).

[VM1973]

Where are all the splinter people? No votes for 4♥?

[cherdano]

VM1973, on 2011-September-03, 10:39, said:

Where are all the splinter people? No votes for 4♥?

A splinter always promises four-card support. The only exception is a splinter after you have denied four-card support.

It is really important to be consistent about this - your shortness is so much more valuable with four-card support than with 3-card support.

[MrAce]

xx1943, on 2011-September-03, 00:18, said:

---

This was the question of one of my partners:
"Knowing that partner holds 5 cards in the ♠-suit does the raise show 4-card-support?"
What is the difference between double and 2♠?

Thanks for your answers

It is a matter of your choice really. I made almost exactly the same thread and found out that the good players in this forum prefers it not to be a supp DBL if 1♠ showed 5 already.

It is not that clear cut for me though. Everyone is bidding, look at your example auction, wouldnt you be happy as 1♠ bidder to know if pd had 3 or 4 when/if they bid 4♥ ? On the other hand opener will compete over 3♥ if he has 4 card support. And not playing supp DBL when knowing pd has 5, gives you the ability to use DBL for the hands that doesn't have fit (or maybe doubleton fit ? ) Overall i agree with them that i can live without supp DBL when pd already showed 5.

[Phil]

I can't see why you wouldn't play support doubles here.

[FrancesHinden]

I think this thread answers the question, at least indirectly: there is no standard as to whether double is support, or general take-out, (or penalties); even if you have agreed to play support doubles, it's a partnership thing whether or not they apply in this auction.

FWIW, when I used to play 1S as promising five spades, I continued to play to support doubles because I still found it useful for partner to know the size of the spade fit.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

Phil, on 2011-September-03, 19:12, said:

I can't see why you wouldn't play support doubles here.

BridgeBum.com says:

"Support DBLS ON through ALL competition up to and including 2H " .

The example they give is :
1C - ( 1D ) - 1H - ( 2D )
2H = 4 cards

So, here 2S would be 4 cards ( and DBL would be 3 cards ) .

[daveharty]

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2011-September-04, 16:34, said:

BridgeBum.com says:

"Support DBLS ON through ALL competition up to and including 2H " .

The example they give is :
1C - ( 1D ) - 1H - ( 2D )
2H = 4 cards

So, here 2S would be 4 cards ( and DBL would be 3 cards ) .

This doesn't follow. In the example hand you cite, 1H promises only four hearts, so the support double allows responder to know immediately whether there is an eight card fit. In the OP's hand, the 1S bid shows 5+ spades, so it's OPENER who knows immediately that there is an eight card (or better) fit. It's a very different kettle of fish.

As for whether the double in the OP should or shouldn't be a support double, I don't really know. Without discussion, I would assume as wyman and others do, that it's not; but I also don't see any strong reason not to play them here as well, since, as Frances alluded to, it might be valuable in the face of further competition for partner to be able to distinguish an eight card fit from a nine card fit.