[awm]

♠AKJT654 ♥T ♦J4 ♣QT6

White versus red, IMPs, 4th chair. LHO is Ron Smith (SF), RHO is Rose Meltzer.

1♣ - 2♦! - 3♣ - ???

The 2♦ bid shows 5+♦, 4+♥, about 10-16 points. A 4-6 is more likely than a 5-5 here (with 5-5 partner will usually bid 1♥ or 2NT).

How many spades (if any) do you bid? If you bid 3♠ and partner bids 4♦, what would you do?

[mike777]

4s give up on any slam or other game.

sounds like pard has roughly 4h ...6d and 11-15

[flytoox]

I go for 4S.

[ArtK78]

4♠. Enough said.

[awm]

It seems that most so far go with 4♠. This is what I did at the table, but it didn't work out very well. In hindsight, I think 3♠ is much better. There is no real point in preempting on this auction -- we seem to have at least half the values and I am fairly short in partner's suits and have a decent club holding. It's our hand, the opponents aren't going to have a profitable 5♣ bid at these colors. So the only reason to bid 4♠ is if I think it will make.. and further, I have to think that it will make even on those hands where partner would not raise 3♠ to 4♠.

This seems like a pretty big position, actually. Partner can't really have three spades and bid 2♦ like this (he would make a takeout double) so a 3♠ bid from me should already deliver a pretty good six-card suit and a decent hand. Sure, I have the seventh spade that I didn't need, but my club queen is almost worthless on offense and my holding in the side suits is not ideal. This might be better than a typical 3♠ bid, but it's not much better. Of course, partner could easily have a singleton spade (say 1462) and game prospects are pretty dim opposite that hand.

Anyway, at the table I bid 4♠ and Ron Smith doubled for penalty. The full hand:

---

Down four, doubled, for -800 into a small plus score (I think teammates set a partial undoubled) was not a success.

Lest anyone point it out, I agree that partner didn't exactly have his bid and that 2NT would've been a better call for him. He agrees too, in hindsight. But giving partner another high card and even another spade doesn't make this contract a success (maybe -300 into a partial instead of -800).

[Hanoi5]

Is that 10-16? I'd prefer 1♥ and then diamonds, but if that's a possible hand and so is Qx Axxx AKxxx xx, then a jump shouldn't be used for such a wide range.

[Codo]

Hard to win against three opps.

Yes, game may not make even if partner has the hand he described. But this time he had ZERO working points for us and ZERO trumps. This is not particular probably either.

[mgoetze]

awm, on 2012-March-13, 00:55, said:

There is no real point in preempting on this auction

I for one did not intend my 4♠ as a preempt.

[ArtK78]

awm, on 2012-March-13, 00:55, said:

Lest anyone point it out, I agree that partner didn't exactly have his bid and that 2NT would've been a better call for him. He agrees too, in hindsight. But giving partner another high card and even another spade doesn't make this contract a success (maybe -300 into a partial instead of -800).

It makes it less likely that we will be doubled. So -300 could become -100.

[phil_20686]

awm, on 2012-March-13, 00:55, said:

It seems that most so far go with 4♠. This is what I did at the table, but it didn't work out very well. In hindsight, I think 3♠ is much better. There is no real point in preempting on this auction -- we seem to have at least half the values and I am fairly short in partner's suits and have a decent club holding. It's our hand, the opponents aren't going to have a profitable 5♣ bid at these colors. So the only reason to bid 4♠ is if I think it will make.. and further, I have to think that it will make even on those hands where partner would not raise 3♠ to 4♠.

This seems like a pretty big position, actually. Partner can't really have three spades and bid 2♦ like this (he would make a takeout double) so a 3♠ bid from me should already deliver a pretty good six-card suit and a decent hand. Sure, I have the seventh spade that I didn't need, but my club queen is almost worthless on offense and my holding in the side suits is not ideal. This might be better than a typical 3♠ bid, but it's not much better. Of course, partner could easily have a singleton spade (say 1462) and game prospects are pretty dim opposite that hand.

I think you are over thinking this. It is hardly beyond the realms of possibility that partner will pass 3S when 4S is cold. Its also more than possible that they will bid 5C when 4S is failing, as they wont know what is going on either. Obviously partner has used this method on a wildly unsuitable hand. I do not think it is a certain inference that partner would double with 3451, he may choose to preempt over 1c etc. Partic if he is 3460. etc etc. I would guess that opponents are more likely to have ten clubs than 8 on this auction. Quite rare to open 1c on 3 and rho basically always has 5 or more.

Sometimes you bid game, get doubled, and its a disaster. Its the cost of doing business.

Also, it will often be hard for partner to judge whether to raise 3S to 4S, as it becomes very wide if you start putting hands like this through it. How often have PM's begun with "since you did x instead of Y you could not have that, and since I know that you dont have Y then my bid Z must be stronger than in this other apparently similar auction". I mean sure, you are probably right, partner should not have 3 spades, but now you are assuming not only that he would bid that way, but that he will realise that you would never expect him to have three spades, and that therefore a 3s bid should be stronger than after 1H (2d) 2H 3S? Thats a lot of thinking to assume from partner in my experience...