[bd71]

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Matchpoints.

1. Will you force to game?

2. What's your plan and first bid? What other options did you consider?

[mike777]

 bd71, on 2012-March-21, 22:44, said:

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Matchpoints.

1. Will you force to game?

2. What's your plan and first bid? What other options did you consider?

I will try 2s for now.

[aguahombre]

2S invite +, and unless something changes drastically, I will not accept my own invite later.

Maybe I devalue too much with only 3-card support for her major. But I feel handling charges here; like she won't be able to draw trumps.

[Cthulhu D]

 aguahombre, on 2012-March-21, 23:19, said:

2S invite +, and unless something changes drastically, I will not accept my own invite later.

Maybe I devalue too much with only 3-card support for her major. But I feel handling charges here; like she won't be able to draw trumps.

If you use 2S as invite plus here, what do you do with 2NT?

[Siegmund]

I plan to force, starting with 2S, but have a feeling it'll be to 4S when it comes back to me no matter what I do.

As much as I love fitjumps, neither the trump support nor the diamond quality nor the club length quite measures up.

[aguahombre]

 Cthulhu D, on 2012-March-21, 23:26, said:

If you use 2S as invite plus here, what do you do with 2NT?

I am old, and like to have a bid over 1S which invites game in notrump. It seems like 2NT would be a sensible way to do that. But, on this hand, my spade stoppers are questionable; so I will try showing the heart support.

[Cthulhu D]

Makes sense - was curious what the other option you wanted was

[ahydra]

I play 4cM so would try X first. Playing 5cM 2S looks right.

ahydra

[Cyberyeti]

I play 2♠ as inv+ 3 card raise, 2N as inv+ 4card raise (in the context of a 4 card major system), so 2♠ here.

[mikeh]

The topic title suggests that the 'correct' answer is 2♣

If, for reasons that elude me, our first priority was to help partner think about slam, then bidding AKQx seems the best start.

Of course, this appears and (I think) is extremely silly.

The more logical alternatives appear to be:

2♠, limit or better in hearts

double, negative, with the hope of showing hearts later

2♦, natural, with the hope of showing hearts later

All of these are flawed, but imo any call that doesn't immediately show hearts is worse than any call that delays showing support because of the combination of vulnerability and our spade length.

I'm not the least bit concerned, at round 1, with slam. I'm worried about how we are going to land on our feet after West bids 4♠.

One problem may be that I don't think 2♠ establishes a forcing pass: we forced only to the level of 3♥, so if they bid 4♠, it is illogical, imo, to play fp.

So does this change what partner's double means? And should it make us bid? I think we have to pass.....we'd need a 4th trump to go venturing to the 5-level.

[Phil]

 Cthulhu D, on 2012-March-21, 23:26, said:

If you use 2S as invite plus here, what do you do with 2NT?

With some partnerships I play 2♠ as a 3 card limit raise with low ODR and 2N as a mixed raise + with better ODR.

I would bid 2♠ because I cannot make a fit jump with 3-4 in our suits, and I cannot splinter with three trump.

[aguahombre]

 Phil, on 2012-March-22, 09:27, said:

With some partnerships I play 2♠ as a 3 card limit raise with low ODR and 2N as a mixed raise + with better ODR.

I would bid 2♠ because I cannot make a fit jump with 3-4 in our suits, and I cannot splinter with three trump.

The 2nd paragraph makes perfect sense to me. But, in the first I am curious.

What does partner do with the information "mixed raise+"? Does he assume it is a mixed (non-invite) raise, or does he try to mark time (if competition allows) so you can clarify?

Specifically wondering about a 1H opening which would accept a game try but not voluntarily bid game or make his own try opposite a not-broke four-card raise.

Second issue: I will assume you have some way of describing KJXX XX KQX QTXX or the like after RHO overcalls 1S/1H. Starting with a negative double might run into a snag when 2S comes back around to you. A second double does not become penalty, merely more strength than the first double, with non-extreme minor suit lengths; and 2NT should probably be artificial showing a whole bunch of minors.

[Phil]

Its a straightforward matter to invite game if you need partner to have the limit raise, and to sign off when this isn't enough. If there is competition, presumably its 3♥ and pass would invite since 2N is forcing to 3♠.

As far as KJxx and an 11 count, since KJxx is more like AQxx, I'd probably just force to game. Timo and I (and Mark) play something similar in response to 1m - 1N is 8-11 and 2N is forcing with 12-15. Even though we don't have an 'invite', per se, this method allows us to stay low when we don't have game and bid a forcing 2N, to better investigate strain.

[aguahombre]

 Phil, on 2012-March-22, 10:01, said:

Its a straightforward matter to invite game if you need partner to have the limit raise, and to sign off when this isn't enough. If there is competition, presumably its 3♥ and pass would invite since 2N is forcing to 3♠.

I am a bit dense, perhaps. But arent we the ones with the heart fit, and at least one of them with the spades?

[Phil]

 aguahombre, on 2012-March-22, 10:27, said:

I am a bit dense, perhaps. But arent we the ones with the heart fit, and at least one of them with the spades?

No you aren't, I am LOL.

[nigel_k]

 Phil, on 2012-March-22, 09:27, said:

With some partnerships I play 2♠ as a 3 card limit raise with low ODR and 2N as a mixed raise + with better ODR.

I like this agreement too. The point is to separate the offensively oriented hands from the defensively oriented ones so that partner can decide what to do over 4♠. Most times the defensive ones will have three trumps and the offensive ones more than three trumps, but this is obviously an example that would bid 2NT despite only three trumps.

Without that agreement I would bid 3♠ splinter. An extra trump would be ideal, but if we just bid 2♠ partner will not compete to 5♥ over 4♠ in many cases where it is right to do so. The cases where he would compete to 5♥ after we bid 3♠ but would be better to double, seem a lot less likely.

[kenrexford]

There have been debates as to the difference between a cue-raise and a 2NT-raise in comp. You have the length of the fit and the strength of the hand to consider. Some have structured like 2NT as 3, cue as 4+, and then invitational+ on both. Some have gone with 3+ on both but 2NT invitational. You could also reverse the meaning of cue and 2NT, whichever you elect.

This deal also offers fit-jump potential, btw.

[han]

You can also play 2S as a 3-card raise and use 2NT, 3C, 3D and 3H all for 4-card raises with different strengths (weak, mixed, limit, GF). You would miss out on the support jumps, it's a trade off.

[Statto]

 bd71, on 2012-March-21, 22:44, said:

1. Will you force to game?

Yes, just.

 bd71, on 2012-March-21, 22:44, said:

2. What's your plan and first bid?

3♠ splinter, then let partner decide. I'm a trump short, but I've got the void to compensate. Like others, I'm not thinking of slam, but of what happens when LHO raises ♠.

 bd71, on 2012-March-21, 22:44, said:

What other options did you consider?

X, 2♣, 2♦, 2♠, 2NT, 3♣, 3♦, 3♥, 4♣, 4♥. Which options didn't I consider?

[MrAce]

 bd71, on 2012-March-21, 22:44, said:

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Matchpoints.

1. Will you force to game?

2. What's your plan and first bid? What other options did you consider?

1- Of course i will force to game.

2-You ask in the title of this topic what bid can help pd to bid slam. I will skip the "slam" part. But indeed it doesnt need a player at worldclass level to predict how the fight of major suits end especially at these colors. As Siegmund said we are very likely to see 4♠ in next turn.

How about pd ? What will he do whn he sees 4♠ or even only 3♠ without knowing that we have a fit ?

Imo if we dont show our fit now, one way or another, we will be reducing partner's accurate decisions and ours too. As Mikeh mentioned, whether pd's pass over 4♠ is forcing or not, whether his double over 4♠ is forced or made voluntarily, we will have much better understanding of what pd may be holding if we know that pd took the action (whatever it is) by knowing that we have fit and a good hand. He sees the vulnerability too.

So my answer is, any bid that doesnt promise a fit to pd is the worst among all possible options, such as starting with 2♣ or 2♦.