[ahydra]

MPs, playing 4cM weak NT.

Double, double, toil and trouble,
miss a cold grand slam...

(nobody vul, East deals)

---

(we picked up 300)

and go for -500...

(EW vul, West deals)

---

(No agreement about East's double. North's was for takeout, converted by South.)

Well, it doesn't rhyme, but I'm a bridge player, not a poet! Please do the usual ATB'ing.

Cheers,

ahydra

[Phil]

West gets the charge on both.

[ArtK78]

Phil, on 2012-April-10, 14:30, said:

West gets the charge on both.

+1

Really, West may consider taking up marbles instead of bridge.

[FrancesHinden]

Let's be nice. The first hand caused difficulties for most of the field - we conceded 5D+2 (-440) which was fractionally below average for us. Seriously. We were discussing the best auction in the pub and couldn't see a sensible way to get to 7D unless we played some form of negative free bids by responder (i.e. 1C-1H-2D as non-forcing).

On both of these hands, the problem seems to be lack of assurance about whether double is take-out or penalties.

The first double is basically take-out, although responder will pass on many balanced hands (like a double of an opening 4H bid). Opposite a take-out double, West has far too good a hand to pass. He's also a bit good for 5D, with a 6-card suit and a key king in partner's hand (anything more and he'd have had enough to bid the previous round). So I think 4NT is best: in principle this offers a choice between the minors, but he is planning to remove 5C to 5D to show a good 5D bid. (It's technically better to play an immediate 5D as constructive and 4NT as either a choice or a bad 5D bid, but no-one except gnasher actually has that agreement.)

East is close to driving slam when West doesn't pass the double, but I think that's a bit too aggressive.
When East bids 5D over 4NT, not 5C, West is surprised but is left having to take a good view to raise.

The second hand you should have got right. When responder passes over an overcall on the first round, and then doubles on the next, this is penalties. Opener should pass, perhaps not hugely happy (he has too many hearts) but content. And expect a trump lead.

[aguahombre]

NFB would be nice on the first one, but we don't have that trick. Nobody could be happy having to pass with a decent responding hand, either.

Fortunately, there is another toy available, which would have helped. Neg double of 1H o/c denies spades. In the given case, this should get us to 6D, but probably not 7.

1C (1H) X (4H)
5H.....doubler could be XX XXX KXXX KXXX or KXX XX KXXX XXXX at worst; some hand which didn't have 5 clubs and couldn't bid 1N over 1H.

Responder will bid 6 diamonds on his actual hand, but opener can't bid 7.

[ahydra]

If the first double is takeout, what does East do with a genuine penalty X, eg Axx AK Axx QJxxxx? Pass certainly isn't forcing there.

ahydra

[gnasher]

FrancesHinden, on 2012-April-10, 15:40, said:

We were discussing the best auction in the pub and couldn't see a sensible way to get to 7D unless we played some form of negative free bids by responder (i.e. 1C-1H-2D as non-forcing).

If you played 1♠ or double as values without four spades, that might do the job, for example:
1♣ 1♥ dbl 4♥
4NT(1) pass 5♦ pass
5♥(2) pass 6♣(3) pass
7♦

(1) Choice of minors
(2) Cue
(3) Cue, denying first-round spade control

Or is that a bit double-dummy?

Quote

The first double is basically take-out, although responder will pass on many balanced hands (like a double of an opening 4H bid). Opposite a take-out double, West has far too good a hand to pass. He's also a bit good for 5D, with a 6-card suit and a key king in partner's hand (anything more and he'd have had enough to bid the previous round). So I think 4NT is best: in principle this offers a choice between the minors, but he is planning to remove 5C to 5D to show a good 5D bid. (It's technically better to play an immediate 5D as constructive and 4NT as either a choice or a bad 5D bid, but no-one except gnasher actually has that agreement.)

I don't have that agreement with anyone. Have you tried MickyB?

Quote

East is close to driving slam when West doesn't pass the double, but I think that's a bit too aggressive.
When East bids 5D over 4NT, not 5C, West is surprised but is left having to take a good view to raise.

When I held the East hand, my partner just bid 5♦ in reply to the double, but I raised to six anyway. I think I would have driven slam opposite 4NT too - it's a reasonable slam opposite xxx xx KJxxx xxx.

[kuhchung]

ahydra, on 2012-April-11, 04:06, said:

If the first double is takeout, what does East do with a genuine penalty X, eg Axx AK Axx QJxxxx? Pass certainly isn't forcing there.

ahydra

Pass.

[sasioc]

ahydra, on 2012-April-11, 04:06, said:

If the first double is takeout, what does East do with a genuine penalty X, eg Axx AK Axx QJxxxx? Pass certainly isn't forcing there.

ahydra

With a genuine penalty, East would just have to pass. On many of these hands you're not exactly doubling for 1100 anyway. It's far more important to be able to get back in on these big hands that don't want to defend 4♠ than it is to collect an extra 50 when they are known to have a massive fit. It's very, very standard for double there to be takeout unless you are a lol (and sometimes then too).

As an aside, the auction on hand A at my table was:

1♣* 2♥ x* 4♥
x p 5♦ p
6♦ p p 6♥
x p p p

1♣ = nat or 17-19NT, 2+ cards
x = takeout in principle but she's meant to do something with any hand that wants to play in game opposite the big NT hand so could be a bit off-shape quite easily.

I probably should have bid 5♥ or 5NT (we have no agreements about what the difference is but it feels like one of those should deny 4♠) over 4♥, rather than giving partner the chance to pass it but fortunately she did not have the hand for that!

[sasioc]

gnasher, on 2012-April-11, 05:14, said:

I don't have that agreement with anyone. Have you tried MickyB?

I am informed that he only inverts the responses like that over 2NT, not 4NT. Tough luck.

[rmnka447]

With first hand, I would Dbl with the West hand. On most normal hands, where opener bids ♠s, you'll go back to ♦s and partner will know you have a hand not good enough to bid 2 ♦ directly over 1 ♥. In this hand, partner will almost assuredly bid 4 ♠ over 4 ♥ after the negative Dbl. So you are more or less forced to correct to 5 ♦.

On the second hand, West in my book has a pass in first seat -- less than 2 QTs so no opener. Over 1 ♥, East passed so is unlikely to have 4 ♠s as no negative Dbl was made. So the 2 ♠ bid shouldn't look particularly attractive to opener. After East passed the first time over 1 ♥, the Dbl of 2 ♣ almost has to be a penalty Dbl. East could have preferenced back to ♦ with a fit there. Without 4 ♠ or a diamond fit, what can East hold other than ♥ and ♣. So, West should sit for 2 ♣ Dbld.

[MrAce]

Double post

[MrAce]

FrancesHinden, on 2012-April-10, 15:40, said:

When East bids 5D over 4NT, not 5C, West is surprised but is left having to take a good view to raise.

I think this is a VERY bad idea and imo you are influenced by the result. When you bid 4NT you asked him to choose a minor and he will bid 5♦ with all hands that holds 4 of them. This doesnt tell west that he has everything under control. It is not something that helps West to decide if we are making slam or not, not even close, it actually ruins West's plan. If West raises to 6 anyway, i think his "good view" deserves to see his pd hold hands like;

KQx
x
AQxx
AQJxx

AKJ
x
AQxx
QJTxx

AKQ
x
QTxx
AQJxx


I would personally bid slam with East hand over 5♦. I don't know why do you think this is very big move after you already explained very well that with most hands West would have sit on DBL. East's current hand makes slam or at least makes it playable against most hands that West lifted with imo.

[ahydra]

I was West. I'll ensure to discuss the two doubles that I misunderstood with my other partners

On the first hand, I simply thought the double was for penalties (old-fashioned style). If the double is takeout (partner did tell me later he meant it as takeout) then 5D-6D is a reasonable continuation. Getting to 7 looks very hard - that CK is so big, and West can't really think his major-suit holdings are grand-slam-esque. What if it goes 5D-5H-6C i wonder... Can East see enough tricks? 5D + 2 ruffs + 5C + SA will do, so he might punt 7D.

On the second hand, I guess I should have figured out it was penalty. I thought partner might be prebalancing, asking me to pick between diamonds and spades (say with a 6331 with 4 HCP). But I think even with that he might have just bid 1S (first round) or 2D or even 2S. Ah well, it won't happen again...

And yes, I really shouldn't have bothered opening the West pile of rubbish on the second deal.

As for whether I should take up marbles, I'm going to pass (pun intended) on that because I almost had 2SX made! I played it perfectly to make on a trump coup-type-thing if trumps broke 5-1. Unfortunately they split 4-2 and North found the trump switch before it was too late

ahydra

[Phil]

If you play weakish jump shifts after 1m - (bid/double) then getting to slam looks pretty easy.

[MrAce]

Phil, on 2012-April-12, 09:08, said:

If you play weakish jump shifts after 1m - (bid/double) then getting to slam looks pretty easy.

Imo slam is very easy regardless, grandslam is not.

[dbsboy]

For the first hand, I think West should bid 5♦ rather than 4NT. East's hand was much better than I would expect, and there is no reason that West should think of slam at his point, for example, East can easily have singleton (or even doubleton) ♥, and he may only have 2 aces, or poor diamonds (like AXX), etc. On the other hand, if I were East, I would seriously think of raising 5♦ to 6♦. I had all the controls, a good club suit, and partner promised 6♦ usually, and as long as partner had ♦K + a black honour slam would be great.

For the second hand, removing 2♣ to 2♠ is pretty bad, but I would have bid 1NT over 1H instead of passing. This is not the kind of hand I would like to make a trap pass.