[Cyberyeti]

Was considering a couple of auctions where the opps open 1♣.

1) the hybrid weak no trump or good hand type

2) the 2 card plus weak no trump or clubs 11-20 type

I was wondering if I have 13-15, how often is the opener going to hold 16 or more ? I reckon not often. and some of the time it's not going to cost. More dangerous is when both opps have 12 counts.

At pairs particularly:

Is there any merit in overcalling the 2 card club with 13-15 balanced to make it difficult for opps to find their 4-4 major fit ? and should you only do so in 4th seat where LHO is less likely to be able to double but partner is also limited ?

Be interested to see if anybody's done this and how it went.

[kenrexford]

You might like R.U.N.T. better.

[aguahombre]

Am thinking that more bad things than good things can happen if we drastically change our competitive style to allow for a short club which might not be short.

Am already content with the opponents having difficulty finding their minor suit fits when 1m is nebulous.

[nigel_k]

I have never tried this but it seems much too dangerous. Even if you knew for certain that RHO held a weak NT, it is just so easy for LHO to double and you have no guarantee of a remotely playable spot. The upside is too little as well.

[FrancesHinden]

Cyberyeti, on 2012-June-11, 11:17, said:

Is there any merit in overcalling the 2 card club with 13-15 balanced to make it difficult for opps to find their 4-4 major fit ? and should you only do so in 4th seat where LHO is less likely to be able to double but partner is also limited ?

Be interested to see if anybody's done this and how it went.

It might work against opponents who are either weak or haven't discussed how to handle this. Against competent opponents it will have the occasional gain but otherwise seems to be a considerably worse method than the 1NT weak take-out version (which I don't think works very well either). Any time responder has 9+ (possibly good 8+ once they know you are playing this) HCP it will not keep them out of their fit, unless they stop off to defend (doubled) instead. It will gain exactly when opener is distributional with some slight extras and responder is weak balanced with exactly one major AND they haven't discussed what opener's doubles should mean.

[Cyberyeti]

FrancesHinden, on 2012-June-11, 14:54, said:

It might work against opponents who are either weak or haven't discussed how to handle this. Against competent opponents it will have the occasional gain but otherwise seems to be a considerably worse method than the 1NT weak take-out version (which I don't think works very well either). Any time responder has 9+ (possibly good 8+ once they know you are playing this) HCP it will not keep them out of their fit, unless they stop off to defend (doubled) instead. It will gain exactly when opener is distributional with some slight extras and responder is weak balanced with exactly one major AND they haven't discussed what opener's doubles should mean.

I'm interested to know, you sound like you've discussed this.

Opener has some random 12 3433, responder has a 3442 8, how do you disentangle after 1♣-(1N)-? you were destined to play 2♥ before the intervention, this is the sort of hand the bid is designed for.

[ggwhiz]

How stupid is it?

I consider it off the charts against competent players. Against them it can only work once (if then) and they will be double dummy against you ever after where you can break even at best.

[Mbodell]

One of the benefits of bidding 1nt weak is it preempts the opponents when it was their hand. When they've opened the bidding they've already communicated a fair bit about strength and shape. Even a short club opener lets responder know that partner is 12+ and doesn't have a 5M. So they've exchanged a fair bit of information. On the other hand, if you have good run outs, if 1nt overcall is usually 15-18 and you turn it into 12+-15 or something it might be a little hard for the opponents to judge. I expect that if you are white it would not be that bad especially if your partner has the inferential gains that when you X you really are never off shape unless 16+ and when you pass you don't have 12 points (so they can balance and per-balance less aggressively). If you are red, I'm not sure if they couldn't just stop off with doubling you too often for it to be worthwhile.

[JLOGIC]

It is really stupid imo

[rbforster]

If you want to get in their way and preempt their auction, bid 1NT for takeout! Then at least you have somewhere to run.

[han]

aguahombre, on 2012-June-11, 11:57, said:

Am thinking that more bad things than good things can happen if we drastically change our competitive style to allow for a short club which might not be short.

And yet there are top pairs who have played highly artificial methods against short club openings, for example holo-bolo defense.

Also, many pairs play 1C - 2C as natural and 1C - 2D as majors against short club.

[FrancesHinden]

Cyberyeti, on 2012-June-11, 15:05, said:

I'm interested to know, you sound like you've discussed this.

Opener has some random 12 3433, responder has a 3442 8, how do you disentangle after 1♣-(1N)-? you were destined to play 2♥ before the intervention, this is the sort of hand the bid is designed for.

If 1NTx was making or is exactly one off (and you aren't vulnerable), and you don't run, then I agree you get a good result.
As soon as you run they just play take-out doubles e.g. 1C 1NT x 2C x P 2D P 2H all pass

I'd have thought the biggest gain was when opener has some random weak NT, responder has nothing and 4th hand also has a weak NT; now you get to your game easily which otherwise people will struggle with.

p.s. what ggwhiz said: as soon as they play the hand (or indeed defend) they know so much more about the HCP distribution that you will lose a bundle of tricks as a result.

[lalldonn]

The team we played in the GNT finals in our district played weak notrump overcalls when not vul and strong notrump overcalls when vul. The two times it came up against me they overcalled 1NT showing 12-14 holding 16 for a normal result, and overcalled 1NT showing 15-18 holding 14 for a bad result. If I learned anything from this tiny sample, it's apparantly even more important to hold a good hand than it is to show a good hand when you overcall 1NT.

[mgoetze]

han, on 2012-June-13, 07:05, said:

And yet there are top pairs who have played highly artificial methods against short club openings, for example holo-bolo defense.

I suspect they would be perfectly happy to play the same defense against "non-short" club openings, but aren't allowed to.

Quote

Also, many pairs play 1C - 2C as natural and 1C - 2D as majors against short club.

I play this vs. any "natural" 1♣ opening and also vs. Polish etc.

[Cthulhu D]

FrancesHinden, on 2012-June-11, 14:54, said:

1NT weak take-out version (which I don't think works very well either).

What is people's general feelings on 1NT for takeout? I've been playing it as 8-14ish for quite a while in conjunction with X=15+ semi balanced (big unbalanced hands have other systematic calls) and I have no strong feelings on it either way. Sometimes you bury their major fit and sometimes it's hard to get to 1NT when it's right, but it has never delivered noticeable swings in or out.

mgoetze said:

I play this vs. any "natural" 1♣ opening and also vs. Polish etc.

I'd like to free up 2C for natural but it's hard to squeeze in.

[kenrexford]

My "Really Unusual Notrump" book describes three general versions of 1NT as takeout that I play and love. The first version is simplified RUNT, where 1NT is a weak takeot. The second version is RUNT, where 1NT is a weak takeout or a super strong takeout. The third version features a super-weak possibility when doubling, which is normally more sound because of the RUNT 1NT.

I find the weak takeout to have great preemptive benefit, and it keeps me and partner focused as we are interested and excited by weak hands again. The inferences from not RUNTing also pay dividends. The sounder double also helps with game tries, competition, and penalty doubling.

The one odd point is worth restating. Being able to act on weak takeout hands means that you are in many more auctions, which is fun and keeps you involved more, getting more lead help, and the like. So, you stay more awake and have more fun. That cannot be discounted. Bridge play is better when you are happy. If you are happy by yarbs and not bored and annoyed, and feel more control or input into results, you do better all around.

[gwnn]

I've been wondering about something, which one is worse, the treatment from the OP or the infamous NT defence of:
(1NT*)-2♣**
*-weak NT
**-another weak NT
?

[blackshoe]

kenrexford, on 2012-June-14, 05:45, said:

My "Really Unusual Notrump" book describes three general versions of 1NT as takeout that I play and love. The first version is simplified RUNT, where 1NT is a weak takeot. The second version is RUNT, where 1NT is a weak takeout or a super strong takeout. The third version features a super-weak possibility when doubling, which is normally more sound because of the RUNT 1NT.

I find the weak takeout to have great preemptive benefit, and it keeps me and partner focused as we are interested and excited by weak hands again. The inferences from not RUNTing also pay dividends. The sounder double also helps with game tries, competition, and penalty doubling.

The one odd point is worth restating. Being able to act on weak takeout hands means that you are in many more auctions, which is fun and keeps you involved more, getting more lead help, and the like. So, you stay more awake and have more fun. That cannot be discounted. Bridge play is better when you are happy. If you are happy by yarbs and not bored and annoyed, and feel more control or input into results, you do better all around.

I just got that from Baron Barclay. Haven't started it yet — I'm reading your colleague's 2/1 book first.

"Son of RUNT". Heh.

[Wayne_LV]

I play weak NT opening (12-14) and tried the same range for 1NT overcall. It was a disaster. Not so much as the problems when you overcall with 12-14 as with those 15-18 pt hands with which you would normally overcall 1NT. To show those hands would require a double and rebid of 1NT and if the opps have opened the bidding you all but NEVER get to make the 1NT rebid.

[kenrexford]

The double with a strong notrump hand is mitigated as a problem if you use a Herbert Negative in those auctions.