[Bbradley62]

Are there any women's events at less than the NABC level in ACBLland?

[Statto]

At club and possibly regional level, there does not appear to be much difference. It's only when we look at the very top echelon we find they are mostly men. One suggested reason for this is that men are more likely to dedicate a lot of their time to reaching that level, whereas women tend not become so obsessed.

I like Yu's idea of mixed events, but wouldn't restrict it to pairs - mixed teams could also be offered, though whether that should mean each partnership must be mixed, or a team could have a male pair and a female pair, or how it should work with a team of 6, I don't know.

[Yu18772]

Statto, on 2012-May-28, 18:37, said:

I like Yu's idea of mixed events, but wouldn't restrict it to pairs - mixed teams could also be offered, though whether that should mean each partnership must be mixed, or a team could have a male pair and a female pair, or how it should work with a team of 6, I don't know.

I didnt mean to restrict it to pairs...I just would like to see more male-female stable partnerships in bridge.
Yu

[Cthulhu D]

Statto, on 2012-May-28, 18:37, said:

At club and possibly regional level, there does not appear to be much difference. It's only when we look at the very top echelon we find they are mostly men. One suggested reason for this is that men are more likely to dedicate a lot of their time to reaching that level, whereas women tend not become so obsessed.

I like Yu's idea of mixed events, but wouldn't restrict it to pairs - mixed teams could also be offered, though whether that should mean each partnership must be mixed, or a team could have a male pair and a female pair, or how it should work with a team of 6, I don't know.

Around here there is usually:

Open
Men
Women
Mixed
Restricted (0-300 or 0-500 MP)
e: Seniors

[Zelandakh]

I have no problem with Ladies-only events. I do have a problem with countries scheduling their Open events and, worse, Open trials to take place at the same time as such events.

[Fluffy]

Sylvia Mello and Paula David bypassed the women series and won the south american open pairs championship yesterday

[Vampyr]

Statto, on 2012-May-28, 18:37, said:

I like Yu's idea of mixed events, but wouldn't restrict it to pairs - mixed teams could also be offered, though whether that should mean each partnership must be mixed, or a team could have a male pair and a female pair, or how it should work with a team of 6, I don't know.

In Europe, mixed teams must consist of mixed partnerships. Here in England mixed teams means you must have at least one man and one woman in the team (and then teams that have two women are told "oh, you must have misunderstood the rules" ). Both ways are fun for something a little different. I have never seen an event in which you must field a male pair and a female pair, but it sounds very festive.

With a team of six you just follow the conditions of contest with the four players who are playing a particular match or segment.

[billw55]

This is a simple issue of supply and demand. The time to end Ladies' events is when hardly anyone enters them anymore. Per barmar's comment, we may be getting there fairly soon. Or maybe not, who knows what the future holds?

As for reasons that most top players are men, to me this is obviously cultural. In most cultures, girls are socialized against competition (and particularly against competition with boys), with the predictable result that far fewer women than men end up with highly competitive tendencies. More frequent success in competition thus comes as no surprise, relative skills notwithstanding.

Furthermore, girls are socialized against analytical and technical disciplines. For example, while women have outnumbered men in university admissions for some years, the demographics of hard science and engineering programs remain majority male.

[billw55]

Vampyr, on 2012-May-29, 03:49, said:

In Europe, mixed teams must consist of mixed partnerships. Here in England mixed teams means you must have at least one man and one woman in the team ...

This is a total sidetrack, but your syntax suggests that at least where you are from, the term "Europe" is understood to exclude England - and presumably Ireland and Scotland too? I am wondering if that is the general usage on your side of the pond. Whereas many of us on the west side think of the UK as part of Europe.

[RunemPard]

RIP all of the fish who have been needlessly fried and served w/ a side of french fries. It is a shame that you had to suffer such a fate, rather than the honor of becoming a perfectly prepared sushi dish.

[Siegmund]

The time to end ladies' events was the same day we ended men's events. If you want to run both, fine, if you want to run mixed and unmixed, fine... if you want to run only one of the above, not fine, by me.

It has been a non-issue anywhere I have played (having seen the last ladies-only event dry up and blow away circa 2000.) There was still a mixed pairs game at a few sectionals I've been to. It was usually necessary to allow a few unmixed pairs into the field to get all the LOLs paired off. Have never seen mixed anywhere except as a fun casual game.

[TimG]

jmc, on 2012-May-27, 23:00, said:

I sincerely believe that what primarily keeps women only events alive in the ACBL is money for women playing as pros on teams in women's events.

There will be women's events in ACBL (and USBF) as long as there are women's World Championship events to qualify for. (I realize this is not separate from your contention that professional fees are keeping women's events alive.)

[ArtK78]

A little background.

Mens' and Womens' (sometime referred to as Ladies') events existed for many years. As far as I know, they date back to the origins of the ACBL and other bridge organizations.

In the 1980s, a group of prominent women players objected to the fact that on the days that there were Mens' and Womens' events at regionals and NABCs, they could not play with a partner of their choosing (in the case of mixed pairs) or the fact that they were relegated to what they, in their own words, deemed to be an inferior event. Litigation was threatened against the ACBL to require the league to open the Mens' events to women. Rather than litigate the matter, the ACBL chose to eliminate Mens' events and to hold Open events at the same time that Womens' events were held.

Mixed pairs and team events have always been rare. Of course there is the Masters Mixed Teams at the Summer NABC, and there is a National Mixed Pairs event. I have rarely seen mixed events at regionals. Back in the day when any event held at a Regional tournament could only be held once during the tournament, longer Regionals had to get creative in varying the events held, and Mixed Pairs and Teams might appear on the schedule (peruse an old ACBL Bulletin and look at the schedule of events at Los Angeles Bridge Week, a 10 day regional, from back in the 70s or 80s). Los Angeles Bridge Week was about the only time one could find unmixed pairs or team events (which, as was mentioned earlier, technically still exist). Locally, there is usually a mixed pairs event held at our local (Philadelphia) sectional around Valentine's Day. But other than that, they really have disappeared.

In poker, there are womens events. However, under various state laws (such as New Jersey) the casinos cannot discriminate based on gender. So, if a man wants to enter a womens' event, he can do so, and it does happen. These men are usually shunned by the rest of the players, as this behavior is deem inappropriate. But there is nothing the casino can do to stop them from playing in the womens event.

My poker league (World Tavern Poker) is having its Open Tournament starting Sunday, June 10, at Harrah's in Atlantic City. On the schedule for Tuesday morning, June 12, are Mens' and Ladies' events. To the best of my knowledge, this is the first time that WTP has held Mens' and Ladies' events at the Open. It will be interesting to see if any of the men decide to play in the Ladies' event. I don't believe it will happen.

[Bbradley62]

Here in the Deep South, where progress is usually slower than in other places, Unit 114 held (Georgia) state championships in Men's Pairs, Women's Pairs, Men's Swiss and Women's Swiss at sectionals as late as 1993.

[mycroft]

I know that until about 5 years ago, almost every regional I went to had a women's pairs along an open pairs. But then again, I used to go to regionals that hadn't succumbed completely to KO disease - we'd *get* 3-5 sections of open pairs and 1-2 of women's.

[ArtK78]

Deleted

[paulg]

billw55, on 2012-May-29, 07:28, said:

This is a total sidetrack, but your syntax suggests that at least where you are from, the term "Europe" is understood to exclude England - and presumably Ireland and Scotland too? I am wondering if that is the general usage on your side of the pond. Whereas many of us on the west side think of the UK as part of Europe.

Mixed teams in Scotland means two mixed partnerships. There is one weekend dedicated to mixed events, with both pairs and teams.

British devolution, in terms of bridge, happened in 1999 and we (well, some of us, if old enough, despite having a London accent but still living in Scotland) will get to vote on leaving the UK properly in 2013 or 2014. England and Wales remain close, in terms of bridge regulations and policies if not in spirit, but Scotland is quite different. Scotland and Wales both run very friendly congresses while England runs the more competitive events.

However Stefanie may have been thinking of the Hubert Phillips Bowl in England with is a Mixed Pivot event, which is subtly different from a mixed team.

When anyone in the UK talks about 'Europe', it means those people across the Channel. It rarely includes the UK.

[Phil]

I've spoken to one woman player that I have known for over 25 years about this. She would be in anyones top 20 women's list in the world I think. She's kind of embarrassed about her success in women's events. Yet, she continues to play, and profit. For some women sponsors, this is a great avenue to hire a good team, and win a national or even represent your country.

In 45 days, I'll be in Philadelphia for the GNT-A. Should I be embarrassed about competing in a event limited by masterpoints? Certainly if my other team won the superflight, I would have enjoyed going more, but by winning the A, I get a little subsidy for a trip and thats fine. If we win, I'll feel good about it, but I'm not checking off any life goals in the process.

One of my ex-partners won the NAP-B's about 15 years ago. He calls it 'his national win'. For the unwashed, he did win a national, and I get to give him crap about it However, he does rationalize it by saying even if he never does anything else, he's got that.

I am a little cynical about players that continue to play in and win flighted events. How many mini-spingolds or flighted GNTs do you have to win to feel good about yourself? I suppose I could say the same about women's events, but as long as a top women's pair is going to get hired for the Wagar, I don't see them turning down the money.

Quote

I have no problem with Ladies-only events. I do have a problem with countries scheduling their Open events and, worse, Open trials to take place at the same time as such events.

+1. If I were pope, I would schedule the various Women's KO's so they would not conflict with the Spingold / Vandy / Reisinger. Perhaps run them like the GNT's - where they start BEFORE the NABC. As long as a top women's pair can get hired for a women's team that runs at the same time as an open event, you'll see this.

[Vampyr]

paulg, on 2012-May-29, 11:39, said:

However Stefanie may have been thinking of the Hubert Phillips Bowl in England with is a Mixed Pivot event, which is subtly different from a mixed team.

Yes and the midweek mixed pivot teams in Brighton.

[nige1]

Scotland has enjoyable Open/Mens/Womens/Mixed Teams/Pairs events We also have great Individual events