[the_clown]

I would certainly open 1N as South, and if partner doesnt find an invitation, I guess we will end up playing 3NT.

Playing a strong ♣, I think we will certainly reach 6 after:

1♣-1♠-
2♣-2♥
2NT-3♣
3NT-4♣ (RKCB with 4♦ minimum)
5♣ (2+Q)-6♣

[aguahombre]

We tried South dealer and not treating her hand as a reverse; ending in 6NT by South; seems o.k. on any 4-3 spade break plus other possibilities.

1D-1S
2C-2H
3N(extras within auction..spade King promoted from original non-reverse evaluation)
and on to 6N via our version of RKC for clubs and a correction at the end to 6NT.

True, responder never knew clubs were longer; but she intended NT anyway.

I have already seen on these fora how people feel about opening 1D with 4-5, but feel free to repeat Anyway, that's what we did without benefit of seeing each other's hands.

[Statto]

It's worth a reverse after partner shows ♠ so we know ♠K is full value. We have some bullets and depth in ♣.

[aguahombre]

Statto, on 2012-June-11, 18:16, said:

It's worth a reverse after partner shows ♠ so we know ♠K is full value. We have some bullets and depth in ♣.

Whether it is reverse strength determines (for us) which minor to open. Later, the spade king becomes nice...as stated. We no-longer worry about the word "reverse", which no-longer has any relevance to the auction.

[mike777]

1) To decide what to open and to decide when to reverse based on pard response will confuse many.
2) otoh i MISSED THIS SLAM.


My only point was that minor suit slams are hard to bid.

I fully grant that strong clubers, relay bidders and those who reverse get to slam...easy.

[Cyberyeti]

I didn't include possibly our simplest route to this if I decide not to reverse:

1♣-1♠
1N (15-bad 19)-2♣(enquiry)
3♦

we open 1♦ with 4-4 hence 3♦ shows 5♣ and now this is easy. For this hand not to be worth a reverse, but be a 17 count once partner shows better than minimum by bidding 2♣ almost certainly indicates a stiff spade honour. Why ? well compare ♠AQxx and out with AQxx and K♥ as to how many tricks are added to your hand, adding half a trick to partner's hand, adds 2 to your total.

[JLOGIC]

The question is just whether north should bid 4C or pass after

1N 2C
2D 3H
3N

imo. Both seem reasonable, I'd probably pass but I could see bidding 4C. Playing normal methods I would never consider not opening 1N personally, it is easier when you know the goal of the hand is to get to 6C to bid 1C then 2D.

[Zelandakh]

Not exactly a lock but

1♦ = 10-17 unbal, 4+ diamonds
... - 1♥ = INV+ relay
2♣ = 4+ clubs, max, GF
... - 2♦ = relay
2NT = 4 diamonds, 5 clubs
... - 3♣ = relay
3♦ = 1345
... - 3♥ = relay
3NT = 4 controls
... - 4♣ = relay
4♦ = no club control
... - 4NT = Q ask
5♥ = ♣Q and ♦Q, no ♥Q
... - 6♣

looks as good as most of the other suggestions. Funnily enough it is easier (for me) to reach 6♣ if the South hand is treated as balanced.

1♣ = 15+ nat/bal or 18+ any
... - 1♥ = 4+ spades, GF (if bal or 3-suited then 4 hearts)
1NT = 15-17 bal
... - 2NT = 5 spades, 4 hearts
3♣ = no fit, 5 clubs (in theory always 2335)
... - 4♦ = RKCB
5♣ = 2 with ♣Q
... - 6♣

but that would be unsystemic. Anyway, I would not have a problem with ending up in 3NT on these hands. At the point that North has to make the decision it is not certain in almost all of these auctions that clubs/slam is going to work out better. And if the scoring was MPs, playing the hand in 5♣ is almost certain to be poor.

[FrancesHinden]

Playing normal methods I would never consider opening the south hand 1NT. It's not balanced, for one thing, and it's worth a reverse after a 1M response for another. Getting to slam is obviously easy after opener reverses, what is tricky is getting to 6NT rather than 6C by South.

p.s. if it's not strong enough for a reverse, surely it's not strong enough to open a strong 1C.

[JLOGIC]

FrancesHinden, on 2012-June-18, 08:01, said:

Playing normal methods I would never consider opening the south hand 1NT. It's not balanced, for one thing, and it's worth a reverse after a 1M response for another. Getting to slam is obviously easy after opener reverses, what is tricky is getting to 6NT rather than 6C by South.

p.s. if it's not strong enough for a reverse, surely it's not strong enough to open a strong 1C.

To most people I would think a strong clubs min is lower than a reverse (assuming 16+ strong club)? I guess in england you guys reverse lighter than over here. Obv I'd reverse sometimes lighter than 16 with extreme shape/playing strength (like x xx AKxx AKJTxx), though I'd open that a strong club, or a spade fit (like 3145 with a good 15), but conversely most people here would not reverse with 16 and 5431 with a stiff in partners suit, esp stiff K. Even if you made the HT the HJ I'd expect many people to either open 1N or open 1C and rebid 2N as opposed to opening 1C and rebidding 2D since they would feel uncomfortable reversing with that type of hand

If this was fine strength for a reverse then I'd definitely reverse, so I guess that's the crux of the matter.

[aguahombre]

All quite interesting. It turns out, on this particular hand, it is not necessary to either open 1NT or treat the hand as a reverse at the outset in order to arrive at the good 6NT with reasonable confidence.

[Statto]

The ♣ suit is much better than being simply worth 3 HCP.

[kriegel]

But isn't the ♠K worth less than 3 HCP? Of course it's easy to give it full weight when we can see partner's hand. I would probably open 1NT, but I do like sounder reverses.

[rhm]

aguahombre, on 2012-June-18, 16:47, said:

All quite interesting. It turns out, on this particular hand, it is not necessary to either open 1NT or treat the hand as a reverse at the outset in order to arrive at the good 6NT with reasonable confidence.

I congratulate you that you reached 6NT by neither reversing nor opening 1NT.
But doing neither is what makes this slam tough to bid.
If I considered the hand too weak for a reverse I would definitely open this hand 1NT.
And yes, I think the North hand should invite with 4C after Smolen. I consider the North hand ideal for a 4C bid over 3NT. What else do you want for an invitational 4C bid?
South has numerous ways of declining the invitation including a sign-off in 4NT. Passing 3NT is lazy.

Rainer Herrmann

[Benoit35]

Playing weak NT with my regular pard, this would probably go:
1♣ - 1♠
1NT (15-17) - 2♦ (GF checkback)
3♣ - 4♣ (minorwood)
4NT (2 w/♣Q) - 6♣ (crossing fingers against ♥AQ offside)

Alternatively, the opener might not feel their hand is strong enough for a reverse, and would then open with the shorter diamonds. Then at MP's we might have:
1♦ - 1♠
1NT (15-17) - 2♦ (GF checkback)
3♣ - 4NT (quantitative, not fearing diamonds so much)
6NT

[pirate22]

Minor slams are always difficult to get to--and chancing/bashing 6n/t or chancing 6 spades,have the same problem..........
so my sequence ply sayc 1cl-p 1sp-p
2cl 2ht
3d 4cl
4n/t 5n/t=2 aces
6cl.