[fpancoe]

ATB to decide which of us wins a six pack of beer


Both vul , 2/1

North South

KQJ Axxx
Axxx KJxx
Jxx QXX
AKx QJ

1c 1h
4h 4s
5c 5h
p

-1


Frank

[daveharty]

I blame the 4H bid. North looks like a 3H rebid at best.

[jillybean]

North 4♥ is horrid.

Frank, please use the hand diagram tool, it is much easier on the eyes, thanks!

[perko90]

Yup, N has a 7 loser hand. 3♥ raise would be more like it.

[aguahombre]

In the Traditional 2/1 which we use, the 3H raise would be unbalanced with about 15/16 in HCP plus a couple distribution points. 4H is 18/19 balanced.

So, in a 15-17 strong NT environment, Opener makes his decision early, with the given hand. He downgrades to a NT opener or not. We might downgrade to 1NT; but there is nothing in particular about the 1H response to make opener's hand into an unbalanced one, or to otherwise change his original valuation. This 18 is a 16.8 on the KNR, so the downgrade should have support, but that would be way back at the opening bid.

Responder might have downgraded soft values as well, but the QJ tight of clubs looks like a good thing. A bit unlucky the heart suit didn't pick up or the opps got a diamond ruff.

[rogerclee]

I thought south bid his hand well and that north's 4H overbid was the root of the problem. If your methods require you to bid 4H with all 18-19 balanced hands with 4H, then I would suggest playing new methods.

[aguahombre]

rogerclee, on 2012-June-09, 02:11, said:

If your methods require you to bid 4H with all 18-19 balanced hands with 4H, then I would suggest playing new methods.

Or, wait until you have a hand which really is worth 18-19.

[bluecalm]

Quote

ATB

Sucky system.
3H should be 5D-4H or 4-4-4-1 about 14~16(17). You need a bid for balanced hands with 4H at some lower level and apparently you didn't have one.

Quote

Yup, N has a 7 loser hand. 3♥ raise would be more like it.

I think bidding 3H with his hand is ridiculous unless it shows 18-19 balanced with 4H :-)

Quote

KNR

Can we please stop using this ? HCP count is much more accurate, especially when it comes to openings (because NT contract is on the table and KNR sucks for that).

Overall, your system should be designed in such a way that you don't play at 5level too often. That means all game forcing bids must be much lower than game if they are not signoffs (or be very well defined) to allow you to cuebid or make some slam tries.
1m - 1M
4M as 18-19 breaks this principle and thus is very bad convention.

[ggwhiz]

I'm old and still subtract a point for 4x3 shape like dear ole grandma taught me and I'm probably 50-50 to open 1nt instead of 1♣ but I like 2nt over any response but 1♥ where this shape doesn't hurt.

That makes the north hand only worth 3♥ and it really is super crummy for a 4♥ bid.

I have the luxury of a pard that never passes an invite unless we are already too high.

[akhare]

Looks like a 3♥ rebid for opener, assuming you are unwilling (or unable) to open it as 1N in your methods.

[JLOGIC]

Bidding 4H with a balanced 18 routinely instead of bidding 3H is an awful method and is non standard as far as I know.

[rmnka447]

In relatively standard bidding, 3 ♥ is right for this hand.

Even with the the 4 ♥ 18-19 balanced, 3 ♥ unbalanced approach, I think 3 ♥ is right. The 4-3-3-3 distribution offers no ruffing value and is not quite worth what a balanced hand with a doubleton is.

Over 3 ♥, responder, with a 4-3-3-3 hand, can offer a choice of games with 3 NT.

[mikl_plkcc]

In standard bidding, north should bid 3♥. (opener 18 points and responder 13 points = slam interest)

However, I think a method which 2♥ = 12-17 points (with distribution) and 3♥ = 18-20 points GF is also playable. In this case, north would bid 2♥, south would then raise to 4♥ immediately. If north has a great hand and bid 3♥, south would start cuebidding at the 4-level.

[the hog]

This is a 3H bid. 4H is an overbid.

[EricK]

I would open that 1NT - I am 4333, my "long" suit is weak, and I have 2 Jacks which aren't pulling their weight. Having opened 1♣ I would rebid 3♥. I wouldn't have cue-bid on South's hand either - it seems very unlikely that opener, with a balanced hand, can cover enough of our losers. But most of the blame goes to North, by a vote of 2 over-optimistic actions to 1.

[Fluffy]

Methods are mainly at fault unless north just misbid in wich case this wouldn't had been posted.

I rebid 2NT with 18-19 and 4♥ with weak 6-4. For people who rebid 3♥ with 18 balanced, what does a 4♥ rebid look like?

[aguahombre]

JLOGIC, on 2012-June-09, 12:23, said:

Bidding 4H with a balanced 18 routinely instead of bidding 3H is an awful method and is non standard as far as I know.

Certainly, many people agree with that. But, this hand is not really about method; it is about hand evaluation. Our partnership will take Justin's opinion about the awfulness of using 4H as a balanced 18/19 and see if we can move things around without damage to the rest of our structure. That is one big plus about reading expert opinions on these fora, but IMO, it is a side issue for this particular hand.

The jump to 4H to show a balanced 18/19 was in the old 70's 2/1 texts --non-"standard" today, but it is out there and used by old people who use the 3H jump with unbalanced hands having the same support strength (less in high cards). If 3♥ to show this is more standard today, so be it. Responder will still be under the mistaken impression that opener has 18/19 for hearts. Having failed to open 1NT, that is what opener is conveying, and it seems he is stuck with an over-evaluation.

Edit: The 14-16 crowd don't really have the same problem, as they can show their 17/18 balanced with 3H and do all those mini splinter things with unbalanced.

This post has been edited by aguahombre: 2012-June-10, 14:39

[AlexJonson]

IMO 4H is fine and S should pass with his rubbish hand (from a slam perspective).

Maybe I'm influenced by imagining 3H would be passable, maybe not.

[perko90]

aguahombre, on 2012-June-10, 10:38, said:

Certainly, many people agree with that. But, this hand is not really about method; it is about hand evaluation. Our partnership will take Justin's opinion about the awfulness of using 4H as a balanced 18/19 and see if we can move things around without damage to the rest of our structure. That is one big plus about reading expert opinions on these fora, but IMO, it is a side issue for this particular hand.

The jump to 4H to show a balanced 18/19 was in the old 70's 2/1 texts --non-"standard" today, but it is out there and used by old people who use the 3H jump with unbalanced hands having the same support strength (less in high cards). If 3♥ to show this is more standard today, so be it. Responder will still be under the mistaken impression that opener has 18/19 for hearts. Having failed to open 1NT, that is what opener is conveying, and it seems he is stuck with an over-evaluation.

You might be taking away the wrong impression. I believe what's still standard today after 1m-1M is that a jump to 4M is still likely an 18-19 balanced HCP hand - just not the one in the OP. A jump to 2NT should deny holding 4-card support. A jump raise to 3M is an invite on a wide range of distributions. As for GF bids w/ 4-card support there are splinters and 4M. An additional popular treatment - but not standard - is to use a double jump rebid of 4m is to show a strong 6-card suit + 4-card support for the major. Yes, the 4M raise is still typically a balanced 18-19 HCP hand, but it needs to be worth at least 19 in support. The hand in question is closer to 17 than 19 (due to the not well placed J's and the 4-3-3-3 shape). On the other hand, with still a balanced 18 HCPs, if it were instead KQx AQxx xx AKxx a jump to 4M would be fully justified.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

I agree with both of perko90's posts ( #4 & #19 ) .

The downgrade argument because of the 7 loser hand for Opener is most compelling . Normally, an 18,19 hand would be no more than 6 losers.

And Responders hand here is an 8 loser hand ( maybe slightly less if some quack adjustment is made ) for those 15 hcp.

Together they were lucky to make 10 tricks.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
I just thought of another use for GGG ( Gnasher's Gameforce Gadget ) to have another way at arriving at 4H .

1C - 1H
2S! ( game force, could be artificial ) - 2NT! ( asks for clarification )
??
.. 3C! = long minor, no 4 cards ♠
.. 3D! = other-minor shows 4 cards ♠
.. 3H! = 3 cards ♥ and longer ♣
.. 4H! = 4 cards ♥; 18,19 balanced, 7 losers whereas a direct 4H over 1H would be 6 losers or less.