[rhm]

Yesterday in the Club (IMPs short matches)

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North (a weak player) cleverly neither raised the preempt (3♠ was passed out at other tables) nor doubled 3NT.
Luckily the ♦Q did not drop.
How should the bidding go?
As a bonus question assume the ♠K swapped for the ♦K between North and West how should the bidding differ?
(you would have 9 tricks here, but you often want the preemptor on lead against 3NT in such scenarios)

Rainer Herrmann

[Hanoi5]

Why didn't west enter the bidding on the first round?

[rhm]

Hanoi5, on 2012-July-19, 05:21, said:

Why didn't west enter the bidding on the first round?

How? I am curious. That's why I asked how the bidding should go.
Do you overcall 3♣ red on white with AQ9xx?
Not hard to see how this could go for a telephone number against some fairly mundane layouts with nothing on for opponents.

Rainer Herrmann

[dake50]

Does 2S - - 2NT show a real S-stop and 14?
East didn't do that, West should 4C not pass.
5C on H8 +DJ squeeze. Surely not a bad game esp at IMP.

[rhm]

dake50, on 2012-July-19, 06:08, said:

Does 2S - - 2NT show a real S-stop and 14?
East didn't do that, West should 4C not pass.
5C on H8 +DJ squeeze. Surely not a bad game esp at IMP.

The squeeze does not operate, even if the defense cashes there spade tricks, because declarer does not have 10 tricks without giving up 3 tricks first. The simple squeeze does not operate with 2 losers.

Rainer Herrmann

[WellSpyder]

[Deleted, since as Ken has pointed out it was rubbish!]

[wank]

considering what a pile of filth east has (no tricks even if partner obliges with jxx of spades or some such), i would think discretion would be the better part of valour and he would admit to not having a spade stop when asked.

[billw55]

wank, on 2012-July-19, 07:07, said:

i would think discretion would be the better part of valour and he [east] would admit to not having a spade stop when asked.

This of course. But he will still have to find an actual bid! Perhaps 3♠ was also too much, or maybe the double.

[kenrexford]

WellSpyder, on 2012-July-19, 07:04, said:

Doesn't it operate as a strip-squeeze if you read the cards right, though, since N can be thrown in with the 3rd heart to lead away from ♦Q?

Excellent line. Although, when you throw North in, that is your third loser. But otherwise brilliant.

[kenrexford]

No one has mentione dor asked if West can bid 2NT as Lebensohl. This might be somewhat critical, I would think, as it allows four approaches toward 3NT, namely (1) bidding 3NT, (2) bidding 2NT and then 3NT, (3) cuebidding, or (4) bidding 2NT and then cuebidding. One of these four should be asking for a bloster and one for a true stopper. Q-x is a bolster, but it is not a true stopper.

Typically, you want to protect a true stopper, as K-x fades in its glory when it ends up on Dummy. But, a bolster is often less necessary to protect, as Q-x is fine to lead through when Declarer has the stiff King or J-x-x.

Granted, if you want that bolster as a second stop, such as holding Ax(x) and hoping for Q-x or J-x-x, then you need to protect the bolster, as well. But, you cannot do everything.

For consistency reasons (perhaps), it might seem like a good idea to define these four meanings by reference to the more common situation of a direct double and then Lebensohl by fourth seat, but in that situation the lead protection is ess important. This suggests that THIS auction define the other auction, as this is the more critical sequence.

Definition, though, is tough, as you have to give up something. Personally, I would protect the K-x scenario and go through Lebensohl for the bolster-ask, as that might be less important.

[phil_20686]

I don't see that west has any other choices realistically. Sure east doesnt have to lump 3N with Qx spade, but with no raise, and partner driving a game, and you with some extras for a dble in the pass out seat, it all seems to point to 3N. Partner denied four hearts and so he is likely to have at least three spades. Next time he has Jxx.

I really don't see any problem with the east west bidding. I even like norths action. With a quacky hand and few enough values that opps likely have game its often harder for them if you don't reveal that you have a fit.

[WellSpyder]

phil_20686, on 2012-July-19, 07:41, said:

I don't see that west has any other choices realistically. ....with some extras for a dble in the pass out seat...

Does West need to drive to game opposite a protective double? If they are playing Lebensohl then 3♣ would show reasonable values. No doubt EW would still get to game (and go down!), but there may be a better chance of avoiding 3N.

[dkham]

East should have a spade stop, so takes the blame. But maybe next time South will lead a heart for fear of giving away a trick to East, and you'll have nine tricks.

[Cyberyeti]

I'm confused, does nobody play Lebensohl or similar over 2♠-P-P-X-P in which case W has plenty of options that should avoid 3N, but I'm not sure if he can stop without bidding 5m.

[mfa1010]

Cyberyeti, on 2012-July-19, 09:01, said:

I'm confused, does nobody play Lebensohl or similar over 2♠-P-P-X-P in which case W has plenty of options that should avoid 3N, but I'm not sure if he can stop without bidding 5m.

Does he? Any action starting with 2N without a stopper would be bad. So would it usually be to bid notrumps with ♠Ax(x). This is not so easy.

[MrAce]

I like EW auction.

If south had KJTxxx ♠ this hand would not make its way to forums probably.

Hell, it actually reminded me of Tom Bessis and his 3 NT with Qx AFTER opponents bid and raised the suit, he still managed to score his Q when dummy had xx and AK were split between opponents.

[gnasher]

I think it's just a normal auction, assuming that 3♠ simply asked for a spade stop.

[Cyberyeti]

mfa1010, on 2012-July-19, 21:24, said:

Does he? Any action starting with 2N without a stopper would be bad. So would it usually be to bid notrumps with ♠Ax(x). This is not so easy.

Well 3♣ "forcing" is fine, we play it reversed outside clubs so our other choice would be 3N (I want to bid 3N but have no spade stop) in which case E is on a horrible guess. I'd go with 3♣ as we tend to be pretty aggressive with the ToX in the protective seat (9 count and stiff spade, maybe even less is auto for us, and will pass 3♣).

3♠ with or without going thru 2N would show exactly 4 hearts with/without a stop for us and yes we'd be badly placed if I had ♠ Ax(x) and wrongsided 3N.

[mfa1010]

Cyberyeti, on 2012-July-20, 03:00, said:

Well 3♣ "forcing" is fine, we play it reversed outside clubs so our other choice would be 3N (I want to bid 3N but have no spade stop) in which case E is on a horrible guess. I'd go with 3♣ as we tend to be pretty aggressive with the ToX in the protective seat (9 count and stiff spade, maybe even less is auto for us, and will pass 3♣).

3♠ with or without going thru 2N would show exactly 4 hearts with/without a stop for us and yes we'd be badly placed if I had ♠ Ax(x) and wrongsided 3N.

I have not heard about playing 3♣ as a "forcing" response, in standard lebensohl it is invitational. In standard lebensohl 3♣ is a pretty big underbid here.
3N directly as "natural but no spade stop" is an unplayable method after a reopening double. The opening lead will be through the potential stopper with declarer having nothing in the suit.

[Cyberyeti]

mfa1010, on 2012-July-20, 08:02, said:

I have not heard about playing 3♣ as a "forcing" response, in standard lebensohl it is invitational. In standard lebensohl 3♣ is a pretty big underbid here.
3N directly as "natural but no spade stop" is an unplayable method after a reopening double. The opening lead will be through the potential stopper with declarer having nothing in the suit.

Yes we probably should adjust our method (as regards 3N) for a reopening rather than a direct double, but we don't yet. 3♣ for us is basically forcing if the doubler has a hand that would happily have doubled in 2nd seat. We do play it invitational over a direct X, but given that a 1444 8 count is an auto double for us and we have plenty of +800s to verify that it seems to work, we lose some definition on the 3♣ bid.