[TWO4BRIDGE]

Fluffy, on 2012-August-07, 06:45, said:

1♠-2NT
pass

bridge is easy

Unless 2NT is a GF raise.

[fromageGB]

Zelandakh, on 2012-August-08, 06:07, said:

SI is a standard abbreviation for slam interest.

Thanks, I should have thought of that. Brain showing signs of rapid ageing.

[kenrexford]

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2012-August-08, 08:32, said:

Unless 2NT is a GF raise.

If 2NT shows 4+ hearts with a stiff in either minor, no fit (and hence usually length in the other minor unless hearts are very long), and 8-11 HCP, then this auction would also make no sense, as East would be clearly misbidding. I mean, Opener's decision to pass would make sense, as he would expect something like 2-4-1-6 pattern, but I would think that the heart 7+ fit would merit Opener at least completing pattern with a 3♦ call. Do you really want to miss game if Responder has, say, ♠Qx ♥AKJxx ♦J ♣108542? Opener passing would be taking quite a position, Fluffy.

Edit: I thought about this more, and East may be boxed in and forced to bid 2NT with this hand, even with an unfitting pattern. Sure -- he only has three hearts, but that's close to 4+. Plus, although he actually has both minors, one of them is shorter than the other, and hence one minor is, in a sense, "short." The range of 8-11 seems to justify a 4♣ call, I am sure many will notice, but East has to downgrade for the missing fourth heart, obviously.

Spoiler

If you bid 4♣, I think this is a fair idea, and you can then pass 4♦, but that is resulting.

[mike777]

tough I would start with 1nt but at imps expect to still end up in 5d or 3nt.


1s=1nt(sf)
2d=3d or 4d or 2nt(12-13) now?

after 2c no I cant stop. as others point out west is unlimited and sounds like he has a club void(no 4h kickback)

AKQXX....AXX.....AXXXX....VOID.

[kenrexford]

5♦ is not a hopeless contract. Obviously, if they take the first three heart tricks, your odds are substrantially lower. But, on any black-suit lead, you cash the four top black cards and cross-ruff. After a trump lead, you need the club hook.

[mike777]

checked with a couple of pards they all basically said:


1s=1nt
2d=3d
p

I thought the hand much more borderline.

[aguahombre]

mike777, on 2012-August-08, 21:37, said:

checked with a couple of pards they all basically said:


1s=1nt
2d=3d
p

I thought the hand much more borderline.

That's fine if your pards guarantee the 2D rebid to show 4+ diamonds. We would end in 2NT because we don't have that luxury in our forcing NT continuations. We haven't graduated to the 2C rebid with the monkey-like name to allow 2D to be real.

[mike777]

since 1nt is sf and 2c rebid by opener leads to BART....sure......pard will have 4d very often wtp?


for me the big issue is what is my rebid after 2d.

as noted before I could understand.....3d, 4d or 2nt, but my pards thought 3d clear.

[fromageGB]

kenrexford, on 2012-August-08, 15:08, said:

5♦ is not a hopeless contract. Obviously, if they take the first three heart tricks, your odds are substantially lower.

I often find myself agreeing with Ken.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

fromageGB, on 2012-August-09, 02:23, said:

I often find myself agreeing with Ken.

Someone call 911 ....

[han]

helene_t, on 2012-August-08, 03:41, said:

Two decent 12-counts opposite each other usually have play for game. Here it is a bit unfortunate that W has exactly three hearts. The singleton club and the duplication in diamonds is bad news, also. So the hands just fit very badly.

And you still have play for 3NT!

[bluecalm]

3NT is reasonable bid after 3H. Partner usually have Hx/xxx/Hxx for that so it seems unlikely we make 5m but not 3N.
If we are not happy with that I would have thought that 4D shows minimum and 4C shows extras.

[JLOGIC]

The basic jist of this auction is fine.

Yes you "have play" for 3N, 4-3 hearts and 2 finesses...good job. I'd rather play 4D which looks pretty damn good.

This is a common enough scenario, you try for 3N and have a suit unstopped, so you bail out in 4m despite being in a GF auction. There is nothing wrong with that. What is the point of having 4m be forcing? Is it such a useful slam tool? I mean, you guys have no heart control, you're not gonna play slam! If west has the heart control, he can cuebid 4H and get his point across, have you really lost so much?

Becuase personally giving up 6 imps at a time in order to have 4D available as a slam bid on an auction where we are extremely unlikely to have a heart control and might have as little as 24 HCP and a 4-4 fit to go with our heart losers seems really silly. If someone has a heart control and slam interest, they can bid 4H rather than mess around with 4D.

[JLOGIC]

phil_20686, on 2012-August-08, 06:57, said:

Secondly, if you pay 2/1 GF, then west is still unlimited. Great you happened to hit him with a minimal-ish hand that is very unsuitable, but this auction looks a lot like west is setting up a slam try in diamonds. If you had hit him with a cue bid in hearts like: AKJxx x KQJx Kxx you would not have been so lucky.

And what kind of bid is 4 diamonds with this hand? Why is it necessary? What does it gain over bidding KEYCARD lol? Even if you made the hand weaker, what does 4D gain over bidding 4H yourself? Do you think partner is going to have a 4H bid over 4D, and that will give us some great info?

Quote

This is quite bizarre. Firstly, have west been 2-2 in hearts and clubs you just need the club finesse for game.

West should bid 5D himself with only 2 heart losers and AKJxx ATxx in the pointed suits knowing all of partners values are in the minors and he has 12+. But, let's say west might have that hand. Then we can bid a 0 % game half the time, and a <50 % game half the time. Let's call it 47 %.

So half the time we just lose 5. 26.5 % of the time, we lose 5. but 23.5 % of the time we win 6! So 3.825-1.41, forcing to game with the east hand would give us an EV of -2.4 imps if west can be 2-2 or 3-1. West could also, you know, have no SA (KQJxx xx Axxx Kx is not a very good game...west would also know it was 0 %).

What is bizarre to me is that you guys think that you MUST bid 0 % games, even knowing they're 0 % games from the bidding, because you need 4D available as some slam try. How are you going to make up the imps lost from being forced to play ZERO PERCENT games by having 4D available as a slam bid? You're really makin up multiple 5 imp losses from that slam try? lol.

Come on this is such a common bridge situation, you know you have no heart stopper, you know you have three losers, so you stop. Does anyone really think, wow, partner is slamming when they bid 4D?

It is different if partner never had a chance to raise diamonds and 4D would be the first time, now it is a viable slam try since he has to use it to set trumps. But when trumps are set already, this is just a textbook case of 4m being non forcing.

[JLOGIC]

helene_t, on 2012-August-08, 03:41, said:

Two decent 12-counts opposite each other usually have play for game. Here it is a bit unfortunate that W has exactly three hearts. The singleton club and the duplication in diamonds is bad news, also. So the hands just fit very badly.

But, west knows that he has 3 hearts. And east knows that he has 3 hearts. They know that the hands fit badly, they have a stiff in each others suits. Why is it unfortunate when you have learned all this information by the time you reach 4D? It is unfortunate that people think 4D should be forcing and once they are at 4D are forced to bid 0 % games.

I don't think people get what a complete disaster it is to bid zero percent games. You are just throwing those imps away, you don't have any outs.

[JLOGIC]

kenrexford, on 2012-August-08, 15:08, said:

5♦ is not a hopeless contract. Obviously, if they take the first three heart tricks, your odds are substrantially lower. But, on any black-suit lead, you cash the four top black cards and cross-ruff. After a trump lead, you need the club hook.

And how often will they not lead a heart ken? lol

[JLOGIC]

bluecalm, on 2012-August-09, 13:33, said:

3NT is reasonable bid after 3H. Partner usually have Hx/xxx/Hxx for that so it seems unlikely we make 5m but not 3N.
If we are not happy with that I would have thought that 4D shows minimum and 4C shows extras.

I agree, east could have bid 4D over 3H to show the worst hand. 4C shows something extra, that is why west should bid it himself with AKJxx xx ATxx xx imo, because east could have x xxx KQxx AKxxx + another minor suit card.

4C could be slamming so west should bid 4S along the way with AKJxx xx ATxx xx.

I think west should pass 4D with that hand (2-2).

Apparently I'm on a different planet than everyone else because as soon as we go past 3H I am concerned only about determining whether we should play game or not. *IF* we have a slam and either player was slamming, we do not get screwed up. West can bid 4H over 4 of either minor to clarify. East can bid 4H over a 4D signoff if he chose to bid 4C (though he might have just chosen to bid 4H to clarify immediately), and if west is accepting over 4C he can cuebid along the way if he wants (while also denying the heart control, to clarify that).

My main goal when it appears we don't have a heart control and are past 3N is simply to judge whether or not to play 4D or 5D. This seems totally normal and logical to me. If anyone has a very unexpected heart control, they can simply cuebid it and it is obvious.

I guess I could see the 4C bid messing some people up (surely 4D directly over 3H is not forcing to anyone, I mean COME ON lol, east would bid 4H or 4C, not FOUR DIAMONDS if he had a slam try and a heart control, AT SOME POINT COMMON SENSE MUST PREVAIL!). But still, there is a big difference in east having something like x Jxx KQJx AJTxx and something like x xxx KQJx AKxxx, in the first case even if partner has the doubleton heart and the pointed aces, we are likely down in 5D unless he also has the CK and we get some more luck (and no doubt partner with a doubleton heart, and A A CK will bid game anyways), in the 2nd case the aces and a doubleton heart make game pretty reasonable (depending on DT, other stuff, but basically).

In both of those cases we would not want to gamble out 3N as we simply don't have enough tricks even if hearts come in. To me that is the difference in a bid like 4C and 4D, 4D is just the nut low.

[JLOGIC]

Quote

The get out clause was not clear to either.

The get out clause: Common sense.

[JLOGIC]

han, on 2012-August-07, 10:17, said:

I would force to game and hopefully get to 3NT. It is not a good game, but such is life.

Why is such life? You can play a nearly cold partscore, or you can play a very bad 3N. I don't understand why you'd accept losing so many imps in equity knowingly in the auction just so you can have 4D bids be forcing.

Or are you doing it in hopes that youre just on 4-3 hearts? You need a lot to have 9 toppers in that case. Even something like AKQxx xxx Axxx x is on hearts breaking and a club hook. That is not good to play a white game on that, and surely you'll agree thats a very good hand for partner to have. You are often going to be 0 % (AKxxx xxx Axxx x). Even if you hit him with stiff K of clubs for the nuts, oops hes got AJTxx xxx Axxx K, you still have no play. Or no SA... etc.

Even worse, he might have AJxxx xx Axxx Kx and you could have gotten to 5D but you're in 3N now, which is on 4-4 hearts and 3-3 clubs (or do you think that hand should not bother with 3H and just drive past 3N?). And he will clearly bid 5D over 3C.

It's going to be a very lucky day that you're just on 4-3 hearts for 3N. I think you will agree much more common is that you have no play even with hearts splitting, or that game is extremely poor even with hearts splitting (like on 2 hooks...that's after hearts split). Meanwhile you are only gaining 6 imps when you run good, and losing 5 imps to your cold partial the other times. And sometimes you get to a bad 3N instead of a good 5D.

You should ask yourself why such is life. When we discuss the EV of bids, we usually agree if a single bid has an EV of -.5 imps, it is a very bad bid. -1 imp would be a horrible bid. Here you want to be forced to play 3N which must have a massively -EV well over 1 instead of being able to play 4D, and why? What are you gaining in return for this? I think if everyone asks themselves this they will change this silly view of 4D being forcing here by either player.

[mike777]

I would have played this auction as WEST having anything from:

AKQXX...AXX....AXXXX... VOID
TO
AXXXX....AXX....AXXXX....VOID

I assumed 2c shows a pretty good gf hand, not the east OP hand.