[straube]

We play a strong club with an artificial 1D opening.

We frequently have the ability for one hand to show pattern to another limited hand.

Say the bidding goes...

1D-1H, 1N-2C, 2D-2N, 3C-3D

That's our way of having responder show an assumed shape of 1-4-3-5. That is, partner could also have 1-4-2-6 or 0-4-3-6 etc. The calls of 2D and 3C are forced relays.

So at this point in the auction, we have a dual captaincy situation. Opener has a better idea of how the hands fit, but responder knows the combined strength of the hands. Yuck.

We've agreed to try queen points here. Instead of showing how opener likes the fit, he will retain control and ask responder's QP total. For the above auction...

3H asks queen points and...

3S=9 or fewer
3N=10
4C=11

and so on...

From this, opener can go into denial cue bidding ask or parity cue bidding (our preference).

So for example....

Axx Kx Axx xxxxx opposite x AQxx Kx AQxxxx

1D-1H, 1N-2C, 2D-2N, 3C-3D, 3H-3N (10)

4C-4D (0 or 2 top clubs)
4H-4S (0 or 2 top hearts)
4N-5S (1 or 3 top diamonds, no stiff honor, possession of DK)
6C

or after 3D

3S-RKC clubs
4H-2 with queen
6C-something of a gamble

So the thing that gives me caution is that responder's pattern is only approximately known.

I think I like this, but am interested in getting feedback here.

[Zelandakh]

I have given you my solution before but you can use 1♥ as an invitiational or better relay and a 1NT response becomes weak with hearts. Now when Responder is strong, Opener is the one describing so Responder knows everything and can make sensible decisions. If Responder is weak then we do not need relays and are better off with natural, non-forcing bids to pressurise the opponents.

[straube]

Zelandakh, on 2012-October-22, 05:22, said:

I have given you my solution before but you can use 1♥ as an invitiational or better relay and a 1NT response becomes weak with hearts. Now when Responder is strong, Opener is the one describing so Responder knows everything and can make sensible decisions. If Responder is weak then we do not need relays and are better off with natural, non-forcing bids to pressurise the opponents.

Well, we halfways do that. We use the 1H response as hearts or GF balanced.

There is some merit in having responder describe his distributional hand instead of being relay captin. If responder has AJxx x KQxxx Axx it's nice to show this shape instead of asking opener's shape and finding out it's 3424 or something.

[dake50]

Try zoom for strength with the assumed pattern.
Now non-zoom is a better/different pattern.
This constrains the shape relay to use only a few bids,
while freeing bids above those saved for 'continue patterning out'
to zoom strength for that assumed pattern.
So, eg. 1435 zooms above the shape bids.
1426, 0436 is constrained to the next bid and +next bid +1
(however many bids are reserved for non-assumed shapes)

[straube]

dake50, on 2012-October-24, 06:53, said:

Try zoom for strength with the assumed pattern.
Now non-zoom is a better/different pattern.
This constrains the shape relay to use only a few bids,
while freeing bids above those saved for 'continue patterning out'
to zoom strength for that assumed pattern.
So, eg. 1435 zooms above the shape bids.
1426, 0436 is constrained to the next bid and +next bid +1
(however many bids are reserved for non-assumed shapes)

That's an interesting idea and treating a 7411 as a 5431 really sucks. Otoh, we are rapidly running out of room and strength information starts to compete with pattern info.

Say I have Ax x AKxx Kxxxxx and am able to show 3145 at the point of 3S...then if 4C results in 4D and the 4H ask results in 4S showing 2146, then the QP ask doesn't occur until 4N.
Just impossibly high.

I'm not entirely sold on my idea of the assumed shape precisely because it doesn't handle the freak hands well at all. Otoh, it handles the moe common 5431s, 4441s, 6322s, etc and I think that many folks have a hard time with these.

[straube]

Here's a hand...

Axx QJxx A9xx xx opposite KJ x KQxxx AKQJx

Our bidding goes...

1D 2C
2D 2H (relay, both minors)
2S 3C (relay, 5/5)
3D 3S (relay, lower short)
3N ?

This hand combines several of the questions I've posed in this and other threads. Opener has an idea of responder's approximate shape and it turns out to be the most blah of assumed shapes, 2155, but opener has wasted heart values and at least one stopper there. Responder has extras and doesn't know that opener doesn't have Qxxx AKQx xxx xx although this hand seems very unlikely.

Responder only has 11 QPs and I'd been thinking that responder should only over-rule a sign off attempt with 14 QPs and this is obviously way way off.

6D is lay down.

Now even if we miss this particular slam, we need a better way to continue. First, lets look at trying to keep opener as captain as he has a much better idea of how his cards are working. In this case, responder needs to be able to over-rule with a lot fewer QPs than 14. Shouldn't his over-rule depend on the degree of shape? Say with 5/5 or a 6/4 possibly 12 QPs? With something less unbalanced possibly 13?

Second, perhaps we just have to maintain co-captaincy. Responder shows shape, opener expresses an opinion on strain and how well he likes the fit (as simple as like/don't like) and then responder places the level.

What seems increasingly clear to me is that space is tight when we're contemplating 3N and have a minor suit fit and I think we need to be willing to over-rule sign off attempts with fewer QPs than we would with say the 4D terminator puppet.

Thoughts?

[Zelandakh]

I am not sure what your relay structure is over 2♠ but it looks a little strange. I assume that hands with both minors and longer diamonds would begin with a 2♦ inverted raise? If so then it seems possible to use, say:
2NT = 5-5 or more
3♣ = 5♣4♦
3♦ = 6♣4♦, 0-1♠
3♥ = 2146
3♠ = 3046, min
3NT = 3046, max

Adjust to your own relay structure of course. I think you are probably missing a trick here if you are also including hands with 5♦ and 4♣ in the 2♣ response. In any case, what are Opener's options for relay breaks? Perhaps 2NT would be an option to let Responder take over? Or simply 3♦. It really is a problem when the describing hand cannot also limit their strength below 3NT on normal hands if Opener has no choice but to go through the relays.

The key thing on this hand is that Responder has a running suit. A running suit plus aces often produces a low hcp slam. You should not look at this hand and see 11 QPs but rather see 3 losers and a running suit. General rules are for general hands. Relying on QPs by rote is just the same as relying solely on hcp. Instead, visualise what partner can hold and decide whether to go on from that.

I still think life is simpler if you can respond 1♥ with big hands. Here it might start 1♦ - 1♥; 1NT and now, regardless of whether you relay or use a NT structure, Responder should be able to get the information they need.

[straube]

Zelandakh, yeah the GF hands with 5D/4C go through 2C. The 2m responses have to handle GI with minors as well as GF with minors and the 2C response has the needed room. Our scheme is...

1D-2C
....2D-2-clubs
..........2H-GF both minors
...............2S-relay
....................2N-reverser
....................3C-5/5
....................3D-1354 assumed shape
....................3H-2254
....................3S-3154 assumed shape
..........2S-GI, 5+ clubs
..........2N-GF, 4D/5+ clubs
..........3C-(322)6
..........3D-1336 assumed
..........3H-3136
..........3S-3316
.....relay breaks handle all hands with short clubs as well as GF hands with 4M/5D

We have certain inferences in competition. For instance, if responder bids 2D initially and then clubs later, he is showing an invitational and not GF hand.

So I like the basic idea of this and it fits with other things we are doing (we can show, say, a 5413 as well as a 3415), but the continuations are a problem. Responder doesn't know much of anything about opener's hand (fit for example) and it generally makes sense to keep opener as captain if possible. The other alternative I see is to have responder show patter, get a reaction from opener, and then bid more after learning about this reaction in the case that responder is slamming.

As far as responding 1H with these sorts of hands, it's very nice to be able (for the main) to have responder show shortness because it isn't always the case that both hands have it and learning about opener's balanced hand doesn't solve much. I'm also leary about competition. After responding 1H with say 2155, it may be difficult to show both minors later in a competitive auction. OTOH, responding 1H with say 3244 seems not to have caused us a problem so far.

We've had a lot of success with relays of this sort, especially for nice-fitting hands with marginal values for slam. The trouble often is when the slave hand has just a bit more and we run out of room before being able to say so, which is why I have the other thread going as well.

[straube]

ok, so the bidding goes 1D-1S, 1N. At this point, responder can show his pattern by starting with 2-L transfers. We can show...

Short-legged
.....3D-5431 higher
.....3H-5422
.....3S-5431 lower

Long-legged
.....3H-5521, higher
.....3S-5521, lower

Three-suited
.....3C-higher
.....3D-middle
.....3H-lower

Single-suited
.....3C-bal
.....3D-higher
.....3H-middle
.....3S-lower

So with 3N and higher bids available, and recognizing that we most commonly are dealt an assumed shape (5431 as opposed to say a 6421)

Short legged
.....3D-higher short
..........3H-ask
...............3S-higher short, non-assumed (hence a 6421 etc)
...............3N-5431 specific, higher short, 11 or fewer QPs
...............4C-5431 specific, higher short, 12 QPs
...............etc
.....3H-5422
.....3S-lower short, non-assumed (hence a 6421 etc)
.....3N-5431 specific, lower short, 11 or fewer QPs
.....4C-5431 specific, lower short, 12 QPs
.....4D-5431 specific, lower short 13 QPs

Long legged
.....3H-5521 specific, higher
.....3S-55 non-assumed (hence a 65 or 5530)
.....3N-5521 specific, lower, 11 or fewer QPs
.....4C-5521 specific, lower, 12
.....etc

Three-suited
.....same, assume 4441

1-suited
.....same, assume 6331