[losercover]

Partner opens 1H. You have 6 points with 4 spades, 3 3 3.

Playing constructive raises do you bid 1S or 1NT?

Does the quality of your spade suit change your decision?

My opinion is that you always bid 1s in order to find the 4-4 fit. I also believe that 1S followed by a 2H rebid shows no more than 1N followed by 2H.

My partner believes that on a weak hand that spades should not be mentioned if they are weak.

[fromageGB]

I'm on your side here, and an added advantage is that 1♠ allows partner to declare 1NT with a balanced hand, which, with my values in the minors and no ruffs, may play better than 2♥. But I'm sure there are arguments the other way, and it might also depend on whether you play a forcing NT. If you do, then you probably have a non-constructive 2♥ raise going via 1NT. That puts a brake on opener, whereas if 1♠ then 2♥ guaranteed better values (or values in spades), it can help opener's judgement.

[barmar]

Finding the 4-4 fit is mostly important if you're in a game contract. When your hand is so weak, this is unlikely. So I think it's most important to let partner know that you have a minimum hand with heart support. Since you're playing constructive raises, I presume you play forcing NT, so you can show a non-constructive raise that way. I'd say this hand fits that description.

[KayRo]

 losercover, on 2012-December-11, 13:04, said:

My opinion is that you always bid 1s in order to find the 4-4 fit.

One important factor that must be considered is: Will opener raise spades with 3-card support?
On a routine 1 heart opener such as AJx KTxxxx KQx x I would rebid 2 spades without a second thought.
The 1 spade bid has then landed you in a 4-3 fit and your only hope to get back to the 6-3 heart fit is if opps decide to balance.

Even if your partnership would never raise on 3 card support, try weakening the hearts and strenghten the pointed suits in my example hand.
Sometime before reaching AQx 765432 AKx x there will be a point where bidding 2 spades feels like a lesser evil then rebidding hearts.

[KayRo]

 losercover, on 2012-December-11, 13:04, said:

Partner opens 1H. You have 6 points with 4 spades, 3 3 3.

Playing constructive raises do you bid 1S or 1NT?

I've never played F1N but I assume the sequence 1H-1N; 2m-2H is the weak raise showing app. 4-7 hcp.


When I hold a hand that is only worth 1 bid I prefer to use that bid to support partner in a known major fit.
If I start with 1 spade and partner bids 2m my 2 heart bid does not show real support.

[SteveMoe]

with 4333 and 6 HCP this hand is weak.
I prefer to bid 1♠ or 1N Forcing (when lacking 4♠s) then correct partner to 2♥ showing a raise with a weak hand or any false preference.
I prefer 2♥ directly to show 7-9 HCP and 3 trumps - a constructive raise. If not playing Bergen Raises I would include 7-9 HCP 4-card raises here.

I am not as quick to raise to 2♥ with this hand because partner will not be able to ruff anything with my trumps. So if partner chooses to pass 1N (not bid on this specific hand), I am happy.

[barmar]

 KayRo, on 2012-December-12, 13:40, said:

I've never played F1N but I assume the sequence 1H-1N; 2m-2H is the weak raise showing app. 4-7 hcp.

It's either a weak raise or 6-9 HCP with a preference for hearts (usually 2 hearts and <5 of the minor).

Quote

When I hold a hand that is only worth 1 bid I prefer to use that bid to support partner in a known major fit.
If I start with 1 spade and partner bids 2m my 2 heart bid does not show real support.

As pointed out above, it doesn't show real support after forcing NT, either. The only way to show real support is to raise immediately; avoiding this ambiguity is the argument against constructive raises.

[losercover]

 barmar, on 2012-December-13, 11:10, said:

It's either a weak raise or 6-9 HCP with a preference for hearts (usually 2 hearts and <5 of the minor).

As pointed out above, it doesn't show real support after forcing NT, either. The only way to show real support is to raise immediately; avoiding this ambiguity is the argument against constructive raises.

Every bidding choice has advantages and disadvanatages. My opinion is that constructive raises are worth it. A lot of hands fall between a simple raise and a limit raise. Since a constructive raise has the potential strength to be a limit raise an opener with a game going hand against a limit raise can make a game try after a constructive raise. Making the constructive raise instead of the limit raise gives up very little. With the game going hand, opener may end up at the three level with a relatively weak dummy when simple raises are played.

[KayRo]

 barmar, on 2012-December-13, 11:10, said:

It's either a weak raise or 6-9 HCP with a preference for hearts (usually 2 hearts and <5 of the minor).

Thank you. Don't know how i overlooked that the 2 card preference would be in there as well.

The 1N; 2h two step response doesn't limit my hand any more than if I started with 1s.
This makes the 1N less valuable than I thought it was.

If my partner "never" raises to 2 spades on 3 card support I think I start with 1s, but if partner frequently raises on 3 card support I start with 1N to make sure I avoid a 4-3 fit in spades.

[Free]

It depends if partner raises ♠ on a 3 card suit or not, the rest is quite irrelevant. The point of not bidding 1♠ is to avoid a 4-3 ♠ fit when a 5-3 or better ♥ fit exists.

[fromageGB]

 losercover, on 2012-December-13, 11:40, said:

... A lot of hands fall between a simple raise and a limit raise. Since a constructive raise has the potential strength to be a limit raise an opener with a game going hand against a limit raise can make a game try after a constructive raise. Making the constructive raise instead of the limit raise gives up very little. With the game going hand, opener may end up at the three level with a relatively weak dummy when simple raises are played.

Not sure that I understand what you are saying here. That is the problem with "terminology" when the terms are not defined. It took me a while to work out what a "limit" raise was, when in my terminology all raises have limits. When it comes to 3 card support raises, I see them as 3 strength ranges - preemptive (say 4-6 hcp), normal (7-10 hcp) and game invitational (11-12 hcp). I would expect partner to look for game over any of these if he had the appropriate strength, so you can play at the 3 level in all of them. (Of course the game invitational 3 card support is probably already at the 3 level.)

In the context of a forcing NT, the 3 card support ranges would normally be bid by

• 1NT then 2M
  
• 2M
  
• 1NT then 3M

The first sequence would also be followed by a typical 6-10 with 2 card support.

[fromageGB]

 Free, on 2012-December-16, 11:12, said:

It depends if partner raises ♠ on a 3 card suit or not, the rest is quite irrelevant. The point of not bidding 1♠ is to avoid a 4-3 ♠ fit when a 5-3 or better ♥ fit exists.

This can't be right. If partner raises spades on 3 cards, then surely you would only bid spades with 5? I have played with a number of partners but all have a way of managing your problem. This uses 2♦ as a 3 card spade support bid if a natural 1♠ could be 4 cards, or with KI 2♦ as 4 card spades when 1♠ is 0-4 spades.

I guess if opener wanted to rebid 2♦ showing diamonds (very old-fashioned!), then you might have a point, but even then I would probably prefer a 5(+)-2 heart fit to a 4-3(+) spade fit, and would not respond 1♠ on only 4 when I had a doubleton heart.

[fromageGB]

 KayRo, on 2012-December-13, 15:30, said:

The 1N; 2h two step response doesn't limit my hand any more than if I started with 1s.
This makes the 1N less valuable than I thought it was.

Maybe so with the way you play it, but for some, 1NT then 2♥ is definitely more limiting than 1♠ 2♥. If I have 3 card heart support for both these, then the first has a maximum 6 count, and the second has a maximum 10 count. This means that a strong opener (maybe he is playing 17+ for Gazzilli so hasn't yet shown strength) may invite game in either major with a 2♠ bid after 1♠ then 2♥ but not with 3♥ after 1NT then 2♥.

[P_Marlowe]

We bid the forcing NT.

The 44 fit in spades can still be located.

Over 1NT opener can bid 2S, and if you raise, you have shown the shape.

You only loose the 44 fit, if you stop in a partial.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[lycier]

IMO,I bid forcing 1nt,then rebid 2♠,it imply to refuse partner's game tries.