[straube]

You are South and dealer. All white. Scoring is imps. Uncontested auction.


.............AQT32
.............Q83
.............J
.............9864
K97......................J84
J952.....................74
T32......................A874
JT3......................Q752
.............65
.............AKT6
.............KQ965
.............AK

Outcomes

3N S SCREAM
3N N Silent Club
3N S IMPrecision
3N N Relknes
3N S Moscito
3N S New Big Club
3N N OC Precision
3N N Zelandakh
3N S Polish Club
3N N Unassuming Club
3N S New Big Club
3N S Jasmine Club
3N S TOSR

3N S Dake50 (1D opening)
3N S Precision by Free (2N opening)
3N S Meckwell Light (2N opening)

[straube]

straube, on 2013-January-14, 23:58, said:

You are South and dealer. All white. Scoring is imps. Uncontested auction.


.............AQT32
.............Q83
.............J
.............9864
K97......................J84
J952.....................74
T32......................A874
JT3......................Q752
.............65
.............AKT6
.............KQ965
.............AK

SCREAM bids this...

1C-1D 16+, GF unbal w/ major OR bal
1H-2C bal OR spades, S/C
2D-3D ask, 5314
3H-3S ask, 5 QPs
3N

Opener has the chance to reverse relay after 1D. I'm still figuring out what the best course is for the 5422s, but I generally like them to be captain. I think this hand would have an easier time placing cards than responder's hand but not sure. OTOH, this hand doesn't have any jacks, so if partner has some, he'll eventually be able to put together a complete picture of the high cards. I'd be interested in people's opinions about this.

If opener reverse relayed it would go...

1C-1D 16+, GF unbal w/ major OR bal
2H-2S 4H/5+D, ask
3C-3N 2452

which actually right-sides it better. Sticking with the first auction.

[JLOGIC]

2N 3H
3S 3N

If south chose not to open 2N treating the hand as unbalanced then

1C 1S
2D 2N
3N

[awm]

IMprecision has several reasonable auctions to the same contract:

IMPs:

1♣ - 1♥ (strong, 4+♠ with 5+hcp and 2-6RP)
1♠ - 2♣ (relay, 4+♣)
2♦ - 3♦ (GF relay, 5314)
3NT - Pass (to play, responder can in principle pull with something like 13 hcp)

MPs:

1♣ - 1♥ (strong, 4+♠ with 5+hcp and 2-6RP)
1NT - 2♥ (17-19 less than 3♠ natural NF, transfer)
2♠ - 2NT (accept transfer, GF with 4+♣)
3♣ - 3♠ (relay, 5314)
3NT - Pass

Basically opener must decide whether to GF with this 19-count; I tend to GF at IMPs but not at MPs. It's possible that responder could just blast 3NT over 1NT on the second auction (since we know there's no spade fit and we don't really have enough stuff for slam) but I gave the longer auction because it's maybe a bit more interesting.

[rbforster]

Silent Club:

1♣-1♥ strong; 4+♠ unbal GF
1♠-1NT relay; ♠+♣
2♣-3♦ relay; 5314
3♥-3♠ relay; 6 or fewer QP
3NT-P

Oops, wrong sided I guess, doesn't matter much here.

[Free]

Same as Justin

[relknes]

straube, on 2013-January-14, 23:58, said:

You are South and dealer. All white. Scoring is imps. Uncontested auction.


.............AQT32
.............Q83
.............J
.............9864
K97......................J84
J952.....................74
T32......................A874
JT3......................Q752
.............65
.............AKT6
.............KQ965
.............AK

1♣ - 1♠
2♦ - 3♣
3♥ - 3N
P

Translation:
S: 16+ points, N: 9+ points, 5+ spades, GF
S: 5+ diamonds, unbalanced, N: 4+ clubs
S: 4+ hearts, 19+ points, N: 9-10 points
S: lets play 3N

[Free]

relknes, on 2013-January-15, 03:13, said:

1♣ - 1♠
2♦ - 3♣
3♥ - 3N
P

Translation:
S: 16+ points, N: 9+ points, 5+ spades, GF
S: 5+ diamonds, unbalanced, N: 4+ clubs
S: 4+ hearts, 19+ points, N: 9-10 points
S: lets play 3N

Just wondering: why does South show he has 4♥? North won't have fit because otherwise he would've bid 2♥ instead of 3♣. Isn't it better to just bid 3NT and hide that info?

[Zelandakh]

A little like Justin, this is a matter of deciding whether to bid the South hand as balanced or not. So

1♣ = 15+ nat/bal or 18+ any
... - 1♦ = most non-GF
1♥ = 18-20 any or 23+ bal
... - 1♠ = relay
2♦ = nat, 18-20 unbal
... - 2♠ = nat, forcing
3♥ = nat, max
... - 3NT

or

1♣ = 15+ nat/bal or 18+ any
... - 1♦ = most non-GF
1♥ = 18-20 any or 23+ bal
... - 1♠ = relay
1NT = nat, 18-20 bal
... - 2♣ = Puppet Stayman
2♦ = no 5 card major
... - 2♥ = asks if 4 spades held
3♦ = max, 2-3 spades, 4+ diamonds
... - 3♠ = 5 spades (and implies 3 hearts)
3NT


Neither of these auctions is exactly great at hiding information. On the second auction especially, Declarer has effectively shown 2353 and Dummy 53xy.

[Hilver]

Hilversumse Klaveren (HK)

1♣ - 1♦
1NT - 2♦
2♥ - 2♠
3♣ - 3♦
3♥ - 3NT

Explanation:
1♣ = 16+ HCP, either balanced 21+ HCP or any unbalanced hand
1♦ = relay
1NT = 5+ card diamonds,(In HK an opening bid of 1NT = 16-18 balanced)
2♦ = relay
2♥ = also a 4-card M and 16-18 HCP, <8 tricks
2♠ = relay
3♣ = 4-card ♥ and 2 or 3 card ♠
3♦ = relay
3♥ - 4- card ♥ and 2 card♠
3NT = to play

Jan

[hrothgar]

straube, on 2013-January-14, 23:58, said:

You are South and dealer. All white. Scoring is imps. Uncontested auction.


.............AQT32
.............Q83
.............J
.............9864
K97......................J84
J952.....................74
T32......................A874
JT3......................Q752
.............65
.............AKT6
.............KQ965
.............AK

This one presents some interesting choices playing MOSCITO

The auction would start

1♣ - 2♣, where 2♣ shows a semi-positive hand with 5+ spades and (4+ Hearts or 4+ Clubs)

I think that the best option is to relay once to identify the second suit, intending to GF opposite Hearts and GI opposite Clubs

Opener relays with 2♦, and responder bids 2♠ showing 5+ spades and 4+ Clubs (note that responder does not fully resolve shape)

Sadly, at this point in time, I'm stuck.

2NT is a relay, not an invite to 3NT
3♣ is to play

My options are passing 2♠ or bidding 3NT

Opposite an average semi positive, I want to be in 3N, so I'll bid it. But I'm not happy about the auction

[Free]

hrothgar, on 2013-January-15, 08:06, said:

This one presents some interesting choices playing MOSCITO

The auction would start

1♣ - 2♣, where 2♣ shows a semi-positive hand with 5+ spades and (4+ Hearts or 4+ Clubs)

I think that the best option is to relay once to identify the second suit, intending to GF opposite Hearts and GI opposite Clubs

Opener relays with 2♦, and responder bids 2♠ showing 5+ spades and 4+ Clubs (note that responder does not fully resolve shape)

Sadly, at this point in time, I'm stuck.

2NT is a relay, not an invite to 3NT
3♣ is to play

My options are passing 2♠ or bidding 3NT

Opposite an average semi positive, I want to be in 3N, so I'll bid it. But I'm not happy about the auction

As opener you have 13 QP's and responder shows 3-5 QP's. This means 16-18 QP's combined, which is more than the required 15. Also, opener has 19HCP, a full Ace more than required for his 1♣ opening (= 3 QP's extra). After a semipositive I'd always force to game. This may give us problems, but usually it's quite ok.

Remark 1: if you swap any of ♣A/♣K/♥A/♥K/♦K from South to North, the auction would start 1♣-1♦ (any GF), purely based on QP's. That's why I never based my actions on HCP early in the auction when I played MOSCITO f2f. We ran into a problem from time to time, because when you hold Aces and Kings, your QP's go skyhigh while trick potential may still be low. Overall it was a good strategy imo.

Remark 2: with the semipositives you always need to plan ahead. So when you intend to GI opposite ♣, you should know that it's simply impossible because responder uses 2♠ to show ♣. So either you GI now by bidding 2NT (and hope partner bids 3♥ with a max - although I think that should show a minimum 5-5), or you commit to game immediately.

[dake50]

.............AQT32
.............Q83
............J
............9864

.............65
.............AKT6
.............KQ965
.............AK

. 1D-2H- .14-17bal OR 18+ H,D,HD,HC,DC - .8+,5+S
. 2NT-3NT. .stops, no S-fit, you extras? - .min

[straube]

Free, on 2013-January-15, 08:20, said:

As opener you have 13 QP's and responder shows 3-5 QP's. This means 16-18 QP's combined, which is more than the required 15. Also, opener has 19HCP, a full Ace more than required for his 1♣ opening (= 3 QP's extra). After a semipositive I'd always force to game. This may give us problems, but usually it's quite ok.

Remark 1: if you swap any of ♣A/♣K/♥A/♥K/♦K from South to North, the auction would start 1♣-1♦ (any GF), purely based on QP's. That's why I never based my actions on HCP early in the auction when I played MOSCITO f2f. We ran into a problem from time to time, because when you hold Aces and Kings, your QP's go skyhigh while trick potential may still be low. Overall it was a good strategy imo.

Remark 2: with the semipositives you always need to plan ahead. So when you intend to GI opposite ♣, you should know that it's simply impossible because responder uses 2♠ to show ♣. So either you GI now by bidding 2NT (and hope partner bids 3♥ with a max - although I think that should show a minimum 5-5), or you commit to game immediately.

Does the 2D relay imply invitational+ strength? Or would a 2N rebid (1C-2C, 2N) imply invitational strength? I should think the former because it risks getting high. If so, how about...

1C-2C, 2D-2S, 3S-3N where 3S implies a 2-fit with about 18 hcps.

Alternatively, if you plan to GF, why not...

1C-2C, 2D-2S, 2N-something denying 6 spades, 3N

Might as well check for the sixth spade.

It's a difficult auction. Richard, what do you think of Free's or my suggestions?

[hrothgar]

straube, on 2013-January-15, 09:15, said:

Does the 2D relay imply invitational+ strength? Or would a 2N rebid (1C-2C, 2N) imply invitational strength? I should think the former because it risks getting high. If so, how about...

1C-2C, 2D-2S, 3S-3N where 3S implies a 2-fit with about 18 hcps.

Alternatively, if you plan to GF, why not...

1C-2C, 2D-2S, 2N-something denying 6 spades, 3N

Might as well check for the sixth spade.

It's a difficult auction. Richard, what do you think of Free's or my suggestions?

In retrospect, I agree with Free that the control rich 19 count should simply GF opposite the the semi positive.
Relay out shape, find out there's no 6th spade.

1C - 2C
2D - 2S
2N - 3S 3S = 5=3=1=4 shape

Now te interesting question is whether to place the contract in 4H or 3N

I think that I would chose the Moysian since I can imagine some real communication problems in 3NT.

[straube]

hrothgar, on 2013-January-15, 09:30, said:

In retrospect, I agree with Free that the control rich 19 count should simply GF opposite the the semi positive.
Relay out shape, find out there's no 6th spade.

1C - 2C
2D - 2S
2N - 3S 3S = 5=3=1=4 shape

Now te interesting question is whether to place the contract in 4H or 3N

I think that I would chose the Moysian since I can imagine some real communication problems in 3NT.

Can I put you down for 3N? I'm not disagreeing with your choice at all, but it seems like most folks with similar information are choosing 3N and I'd rather have this be about system comparison than bidding judgment. OTOH, if there's something about your auction that suggests 4H (e.g. responder has potential to have 3 QPs while others might expect a minimum of 5 QPs and you want to be able to reach dummy via a ruff) then we should go with 4H. For now I have you down for 4H, but let me know if you'll go along with 3N.

[relknes]

Free, on 2013-January-15, 03:46, said:

Just wondering: why does South show he has 4♥? North won't have fit because otherwise he would've bid 2♥ instead of 3♣. Isn't it better to just bid 3NT and hide that info?

3N there would show 16-18 points. South could "lie" a little and bid that way (in fact I was tempted to) but since North had not yet limited their hand, slam was still in the picture and I decided I would probably show the extra strength just in case. Without first round control of hearts I would be a bit more tempted to lie and go 3N, showing my strength if partner pushed on with a slam try.
Granted, it is a bit of an akward situation. Every system has akward hands, and ours happen to be strong misfit hands. If North had 11+ points here, for instance, they would probably bid 4♥ showing either 5-3-1-4 or 5-3-0-5 and 11+ points. Since it is highly unlikely that South has 5 hearts (they would have to be 6-5 in the reds), I don't worry about raising hearts there with that shape and 9-10 points, since South will push on with 4♦ if they are 6-5. Like I said, strong misfit hands can be really akward for us.
That is actually a good argument for South opening 2N on this hand (which I was also tempted to do). I decided, however, to make the "book" bids to make sure I wasn't just resulting.

[straube]

relknes, on 2013-January-15, 10:27, said:

3N there would show 16-18 points. South could "lie" a little and bid that way (in fact I was tempted to) but since North had not yet limited their hand, slam was still in the picture and I decided I would probably show the extra strength just in case. Without first round control of hearts I would be a bit more tempted to lie and go 3N, showing my strength if partner pushed on with a slam try.
Granted, it is a bit of an akward situation. Every system has akward hands, and ours happen to be strong misfit hands. If North had 11+ points here, for instance, they would probably bid 4♥ showing either 5-3-1-4 or 5-3-0-5 and 11+ points. Since it is highly unlikely that South has 5 hearts (they would have to be 6-5 in the reds), I don't worry about raising hearts there with that shape and 9-10 points, since South will push on with 4♦ if they are 6-5. Like I said, strong misfit hands can be really akward for us.
That is actually a good argument for South opening 2N on this hand (which I was also tempted to do). I decided, however, to make the "book" bids to make sure I wasn't just resulting.

Hats off for bidding your system.

[hrothgar]

straube, on 2013-January-15, 10:43, said:

Hats off for bidding your system.

FWIW, I would be interested to know whether its est to declare this in 3N or 4♥.

Can anyone set up a simple sim generating 100 or so 5=3=1=4 hands with 4-5 QPs and see whether 3N or 4♥ plays better on average...

[antonylee]

Polish club: 1♣ - 1♠ (7+, 4+♠); 2N (18-22ish balanced with 2♠) - 3N (yes that 2N rebid sucks, but 2♦ is artificial, 18+ 3+♠ here).

Here is the sim:

$ redeal -S '65 AKT6 KQ965 AK' --accept 'return deal.north.shape == [5, 3, 1, 4] and 4 <= deal.north.qp <= 5' --init 'self.HS = self.NS = self.HN = self.NN = 0' --do 'self.HS += deal.dd_score("4HS") > 0; self.HN += deal.dd_score("4HN") > 0; self.NS += deal.dd_score("3NS") > 0; self.NN += deal.dd_score("3NN") > 0'\
--final 'print(self.HS, self.HN, self.NS, self.NN)' -n1000
811 815 867 874

So double dummy 3N (from either side) is ~5% better than 4♥.

On the other hand 4♥ is better at matchpoints.