[straube]

Zelandakh, on 2013-January-24, 08:53, said:

This seems to be the whole crux of the hand really, no? If, like me, you assign relay breaks to stop asks then it hurts your slam bidding but pays dividends on hands like this where otherwise you would be guessing. What I am looking to see, and I suspect straube would also appreciate it, is the logic behind why you make one decision over the other. Obviously AKT9xx is a very good suit and playable opposite a singleton. On the other hand, if North had great clubs (AKx?) then 3NT would look more appealing. Anyone have an alternative solution to this?

Yeah, I think a lot of us just have to guess. I guessed right and certainly could have been biased having seen both hands. I think AKT9xx has all kinds of chances to lose only one trump trick though (could break 3/3, pd could have stiff Q or J, could find Qx or Jx in one hand) and is likely the suit we want to be running so I don't feel too bad about making this decision. Perhaps if a closer call (in my mind anyway) comes up, I'll hide the hand for relayers and put them to the guess. Those that invest in a stopper ask will come out ahead. You certainly have a better auction than I do.

[antonylee]

Three auctions for me.

Classic Polish club:
P-1♣!
1♥-2♦! (natural; 18+ 3+♥, not two suited with only 3 hearts)
3♦-3♠ (natural canapé; natural)
4♠

1♦ opening:
1♦-1♠ (unbalanced 11-18; natural)
2♣!-3♣! (4♥-5+♦ 11-15; 4SF)
3♦-3♠
4♠

2♥ opening (in my actual partnership)
2♥-2♠ (8-11 exactly 4♥ unbalanced and 0-3♠; the rest is natural for GCC compliance )
3♦-3♥
3♠-4♠

[nige1]

straube, on 2013-January-24, 01:02, said:

#15. You are South and third seat. V vs NV. Uncontested auction. Some may open or preempt the North hand...

Jasmine ♣. A Trypanosomiasis two
North ♠ Q ♥ A653 ♦ KQT94 ♣ 854: 2♥ 3♠
South ♠ AKT952 ♥ KQ4 ♦ AJ ♣ QT: 2N 4♥

• 2♥ = Nat, 8-12, 4♥, 5+ m.
• 2N = Relay. Responses 3m = Nat min, 3♥ = Art max 5+ ♣, 3N = Art max 5+ ♦ 3 ♠, and ...
• 3♠ = Art max 5+ ♦ not 3 ♠.
• 4♥ = Nat.

Marks, IMO: 4♠ = 10, 5♦ = 8. 3N, 4♥ = 6. Partscores = 4.

[awm]

IMprecision:

1♦ - 1♠ (11-13 balanced or 11-15 three suited or minors, natural F1)
1NT - 2♦ (routine rebid on this shape, GF relay)
2NT - 3♠ (singleton spade, ask for club stopper)
4♣ - 4♠ (no stopper and minimum, to play)

If someone forced a first-seat pass:

Pass - 1♣ (forced, strong club)
1♦ - 1♠ (double negative or balanced GF or 7+RP, natural F1)
1NT - 3♣ (GF relay, 6322 or 7222)
3♦ - 3♥ (relay, 6322)
3♠ - 4♦ (ask RP, 12 RP)
4♠ - Pass (to play)

Looking at three little clubs opposite a doubleton, 4♠ seems very likely the better game.

[Siegmund]

Malfoir opens the North hand:

1D-1S (11-18 exactly 4 hearts / natural)
2D-3S (5+ diamonds / natural GF)
3NT (singleton spade) and now South has to choose between 4S and 3NT. A more thoughtful north might treat his queen as worth 4S or even cuebid his ace of hearts, rather than bidding 3NT.

Playing Standard I also open the North hand, intending to bid 1NT over 1S, but in Unassuming Club that rebid isn't available, so in Unassuming I am endplayed into passing as North.

1C-1H
2C-2D (19+ any / 10-12 any)
2S-3D (finally two natural bids in a row; responder likely 4H5D not 5H4D for this sequence)
3S and now it is North who has the tough choice to make. I think he opts for 4S on the singleton rather than implying he has the club stopper.

So, put me down for 4S whichever way it goes.

[Zelandakh]

antonylee, on 2013-January-24, 15:01, said:

Classic Polish club:
P-1♣!
1♥-2♦! (natural; 18+ 3+♥, not two suited with only 3 hearts)
3♦-3♠ (natural canapé; natural)
4♠

I am no PC expert but I think North should clearly bid 3NT over 3♠. Can South not even be something like 5224 here? Over 3NT, South has a difficult decision.

antonylee, on 2013-January-24, 15:01, said:

2♥ opening (in my actual partnership)
2♥-2♠ (8-11 exactly 4♥ unbalanced and 0-3♠; the rest is natural for GCC compliance )
3♦-3♥
3♠-4♠

What is 3♠ here? It does not feel very natural to me to be supporting partner with a stuff after they showed support for my first bid suit (even with canape). Of course, if 3♠ is the equivalent of 4th suit forcing, denying club help, then this looks very nice.

[straube]

Zelandakh, on 2013-January-25, 02:14, said:

I am no PC expert but I think North should clearly bid 3NT over 3♠. Can South not even be something like 5224 here? Over 3NT, South has a difficult decision.



What is 3♠ here? It does not feel very natural to me to be supporting partner with a stuff after they showed support for my first bid suit (even with canape). Of course, if 3♠ is the equivalent of 4th suit forcing, denying club help, then this looks very nice.

I have the same questions as Zelandakh. Would you please explain your auctions? I don't see North supporting with a stiff.

[Siegmund]

I realize that even when I played "classic" Polish I wasn't playing it quite the way it was in the books... but when I played it 1C-1H-2D (almost) set hearts as trump, and wasn't something I would have done with 6 spades and 3 hearts. I can't help thinking something more like 1C-1H-2S-3D-3H would be the start in Polish-without-fancy-asking-bids world. (And then what the heck does north do?)

[Zelandakh]

Siegmund, on 2013-January-25, 09:54, said:

I can't help thinking something more like 1C-1H-2S-3D-3H would be the start in Polish-without-fancy-asking-bids world. (And then what the heck does north do?)

Bidding 3♠ on this auction would be a lot better since North already denied primary spade support and it essentially acts as a kind of grope.

[antonylee]

antonylee, on 2013-January-24, 15:01, said:

2♥ opening (in my actual partnership)
2♥-2♠ (8-11 exactly 4♥ unbalanced and 0-3♠; the rest is natural for GCC compliance )
3♦-3♥
3♠-4♠

Zelandakh, on 2013-January-25, 02:14, said:

What is 3♠ here? It does not feel very natural to me to be supporting partner with a stuff after they showed support for my first bid suit (even with canape). Of course, if 3♠ is the equivalent of 4th suit forcing, denying club help, then this looks very nice.

Of course there is no real definition of "natural" of course at that point of the auction; 3♠ is basically "I don't want to commit to either game (3N, 4♥, 4♠) and if you don't want to play in 3N then 4♠ should have some chances". So really some sort of 4SF I think (but playing it as a pure 4SF would run afoul of the GCC so well...).

[straube]

antonylee, on 2013-January-25, 12:34, said:

Of course there is no real definition of "natural" of course at that point of the auction; 3♠ is basically "I don't want to commit to either game (3N, 4♥, 4♠) and if you don't want to play in 3N then 4♠ should have some chances". So really some sort of 4SF I think (but playing it as a pure 4SF would run afoul of the GCC so well...).

Pretty certain that everything goes in the second round of bidding. 3S can be as artificial as you like.

[antonylee]

antonylee, on 2013-January-24, 15:01, said:

Classic Polish club:
P-1♣!
1♥-2♦! (natural; 18+ 3+♥, not two suited with only 3 hearts)
3♦-3♠ (natural canapé; natural)
4♠

Zelandakh, on 2013-January-25, 02:14, said:

I am no PC expert but I think North should clearly bid 3NT over 3♠. Can South not even be something like 5224 here? Over 3NT, South has a difficult decision.

Siegmund, on 2013-January-25, 09:54, said:

I realize that even when I played "classic" Polish I wasn't playing it quite the way it was in the books... but when I played it 1C-1H-2D (almost) set hearts as trump, and wasn't something I would have done with 6 spades and 3 hearts. I can't help thinking something more like 1C-1H-2S-3D-3H would be the start in Polish-without-fancy-asking-bids world. (And then what the heck does north do?)

This structure comes from Jassem's WJ05 (translated in English by David Neill, you can find it on internet); he proposes three variants for 2♦ and the one I settled on is bubrotka (thinking about switching to odwyrtka right now). 2♦ promises 3+♥ (as a poster said once on r.g.b., bidding 2♦ without 3-card support is a "serious bridge crime" :-)) so 5224 is excluded. I also have the agreement with my partner that 2♦ can come from either a balanced (intending to bid NT or support), or a one-suited hand (intending to bid the suit or support) -- if two-suited, say 5314, you have to decide which suit to hide, because seemingly natural auctions such as 1♣-1♥; 1♠-1N; 2♣-... intending to give delayed support to partenr's first suit are canapé with 5+♣4♠ 15-17 (in this particular case) so you need to bid 2♠ first and then 3♣ later (or perhaps 3♥). These auctions aren't that nice so I decided that showing a strong hand and bypassing 2♦ basically gives up on finding a 3-5 fit.

For this particular auction opener's 3♠ shows a 63xx (if 5314 he would probably make the practical bid of 3N at that point, and with 4-card support he would cheaply agree hearts) so responder can see that 4♠ will usually have more play than 3N given the club weakness.

The full structure of bubrotka after 1♣-1M-2♦ is 2♥=7-10 4M; 2♠=11+ 4M; 2N=11+5M; 3m=9-11 4M5m; 3♥=7-10 5M unbal (3♠ and 3N ask); 3♠=7-10 5332; 3N=6322; 4x=splinter with 6M.

[the_clown]

Precision

1♦-1♠
1NT-3♠ (GF we play ♠)
3NT-4♦
4♠

[Zelandakh]

antonylee, on 2013-January-25, 12:34, said:

So really some sort of 4SF I think

In this case I like the auction a lot. I do not see any problem in using the bid as a grope in a natural context.

antonylee, on 2013-January-25, 12:51, said:

For this particular auction opener's 3♠ shows a 63xx (if 5314 he would probably make the practical bid of 3N at that point,

Maybe this is true and you obviously have experience of the system. I looked up the notes at Dan Neill's site (one of my favourites) and this particular auction is not there, but similar ones say 5+ for 2♦ followed by a new suit. None of these were with spades though and I can this being an exception due to the space issues.

[antonylee]

Zelandakh, on 2013-January-26, 08:56, said:

Maybe this is true and you obviously have experience of the system. I looked up the notes at Dan Neill's site (one of my favourites) and this particular auction is not there, but similar ones say 5+ for 2♦ followed by a new suit. None of these were with spades though and I can this being an exception due to the space issues.

Then I should have a look at these notes I guess... I always played this as 6+; introducing a 5-card suit (especially spades) at the 3-level doesn't look optimal to me (but perhaps he knows better).

[Mbodell]

3nt S for tosr

1♦-2♠ : 2+D, 10-15 unbal or 15-17 bal; Strong jump shift
3♦-3nt : natural; suggest game

If N passes we probably still play 3nt on an auction like:
P-1♣ : <10 unbal or <12 bal; any 16+
1♠-1nt : gf 8+ hcp, 2+ ctls, any 4432 or any 4333 or both reds; relay
2♣-2♦ : both reds; relay
2♥-2♠ : 4H, 5+D; relay
2nt-3♣ : short S; relay
3♦-3nt? (3♥-3nt-P?) : 1=4=5=3; to play (controls; 3; to play)

Without knowing about stiff Q, it isn't clear that 4♠ is better.

[qplus10]

well I would have passed north but I thought i'd let it choose and it came up with the suprising
1♥(4+♥) 2♠(strong jump shift)
3♦(so now it has shown 5+♥and 4+♦) 4♦
4nt(rkcb ♦) 5♥
6♦6♥
6♠



It has had some pretty mad auctions. It is possible not much work has been done on the strong club options because they are disallowed in the world computer championship.

[jack502]

1♦1♥
1nt 2♣
2♦2♥
2♠3nt


1♦= 4+ hearts can be canape
1♥= relay
1nt =bal short spades or 4hearts 5 diamonds
2♣= relay
2♦=4hearts 5 diamonds
2♠=1453 shape.

[Mbodell]

qplus10, on 2013-January-29, 06:47, said:

It has had some pretty mad auctions. It is possible not much work has been done on the strong club options because they are disallowed in the world computer championship.

That makes a lot of sense, but is also why they should be allowed at the world computer championships.

[Lord Molyb]

Quote

.....................Q
.....................A653
.....................KQT94
.....................854
J743...................................86
T98....................................J72
85......................................7632
A762..................................KJ93
.....................AKT952
.....................KQ4
.....................AJ
.....................QT

Molybdenum Forcing Pass System:
This could go two ways, depending on whether north decides to open 1♦ or pass. He'll probably pass, so then the following auction unfolds:
N ---- S
P --- 1♠ (Opening hand, any GF except for major suited slam tries)
2♦ --- 2♠ (natural)
2NT --- 3♠ (natural)
3NT --- 4♦ (natural, cue bid)
4♠ --- P

If north opens 1♦...

N ---- S
1♦ --- 1NT (0-10 natural, 15+ OR pre-emptive raise forcing for 1 round and artificial)
2♥ --- 2♠ (8-10, relay to 2NT)
2NT --- 3♣ (relay, GF without support)
3♦ --- 3♠ (relay, 6+ ♠)
3NT --- P

If this is recorded please include the first one, as I'm likely to pass instead of opening.