[jillybean]

[FONT=Courier]

Scoring: IMP

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Hi,
playing SAYC, how can I make a gameforcing diamond bid after my partner opens 1nt?

3♣/♦ is only invitational.

Bidding 2♣ (stayman) and then 3♦ shows slam interest (oops, GF?) 5+♦ but does this also guarantee 4♥/♠?

tyia
jillybean

[mikestar]

1N-2C-3D is correct in SAYC given that you don't play minor suit transfers. Since it is the only way to make a game forcing bid in a minor suit, it doesn't promise a 4 card major.

By the way, while I agree with a game forcing diamond bid at IMPs as in this case, I'd just bid 3N with these cards at matchpoints. With no aces 6D is remote and I only want to be in 5D if 3N is going down.

[Free]

I don't see much use in showing your ♦ suit while you will usually play 3NT anyway. Unless you see some slam ambition in these cards, you can transfer ♦ and bid 3NT afterwards, otherwise just bid and play 3NT.

[luke warm]

playing sayc, i agree bidding 3nt might be the best way.. just 1nt : 3nt... this is why i love the methods i play, i can find out below 3nt which suit opener is short in (relatively short, that is - no 5422 hands are opened 1nt)

[jillybean]

Scoring: IMP

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West North East South

 -     -     Pass  Pass
 Pass  1NT   Pass  2♣
 Pass  2♥    Pass  3♦!
 Pass  3NT   Pass  Pass
 Pass  

Thanks for the replies, here is the full hand.
Looks like there is no way under sayc to discover the ♠ shortage.
3nt went down

jillybean

[Flame]

There maybe no way under full sayc, but as i look at it, sayc should just be your base system, and you can and should add better structures, one of those can be 4 suits transfers, on which the bidding would go.
1nt-2nt
3C - 3S
which show a long diamond suit and spade shorness. (with diamonds and spade you bid 2c first)
Anyway im not expert in sayc, but imo after 3d a bid of h (instead of the 3nt) shows a heart stoper, no spade stop, but it should also show imo atleast 3 diamonds which this hand luck. The 3 cards diamond is importent, as it present a good chance that we have an alternative to 3nt (5D) without it the chances are that 5d wouldnt be a good alternative and therefore we better land in 3nt without telling the opponents about the spade problem. in this example 5d is a better contract (although still not a great game) but you cant be right every time.
btw doesnt 1nt show 15-17 ?

[Cascade]

jillybean2, on Dec 20 2004, 10:26 AM, said:

Scoring: IMP

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West North East South

 -     -     Pass  Pass
 Pass  1NT   Pass  2♣
 Pass  2♥    Pass  3♦!
 Pass  3NT   Pass  Pass
 Pass  

Thanks for the replies, here is the full hand.
Looks like there is no way under sayc to discover the ♠ shortage.
3nt went down

jillybean

Opener with potential problems in two suits (I count Axxx a potential problem for NTs) and suit oriented rather than NT oriented cards is not obliged to bid 3NT.

Which alternative bid you make will depend on your partnership style. I would like to temporize with 3♥ but if partner is going to think that you have five hearts I am not sure that that is best.

[mr1303]

Simple solution: play Keri.

Hearts aren't good enough to make a transfer splinter, so you transfer to clubs (2NT) and follow it up with 3D, showing 5-4 either way in the minors, then after 3H from opener (showing a serious problem in spades) you now bid 5D.

[Fluffy]

You found a hole in your system, the main problem is opener will bid 4♠ when he has 4-4 in the majors, here you got another problem when he thinks you should stop your 4 card suit.

I dunno about australia, but in west europe transfer to minors is the most popular.

1NT-3♣
3♦-3♠

shows a GF hand with 6+♦ and ♠ shortness, works kinda perfectly on the given hand.

[han]

mr1303, on Dec 19 2004, 06:23 PM, said:

Simple solution: play Keri.

Hearts aren't good enough to make a transfer splinter, so you transfer to clubs (2NT) and follow it up with 3D, showing 5-4 either way in the minors, then after 3H from opener (showing a serious problem in spades) you now bid 5D.

There is no need to play something as complicated as keri for this hand. Almost any complete notrump system has a way to show one or both minors with a short major.

I'm not sure what 1NT-2S is played as in sayc, perhaps this is a minor suit stayman? After that you could bid 3S, showing both minors and a stiff spade, that would do this hand justice.

[Cascade]

Fluffy, on Dec 20 2004, 12:41 PM, said:

You found a hole in your system, the main problem is opener will bid 4♠ when he has 4-4 in the majors, here you got another problem when he thinks you should stop your 4 card suit.

Which bid promised four spades?

[bearmum]

jillybean2, on Dec 20 2004, 10:26 AM, said:

Dealer: East Vul: None Scoring: IMP

♠ T73 ♥ AQ42 ♦ A6 ♣ A843 ♠ 2 ♥ K3 ♦ KJ9842 ♣ QJ72

West  North East  South

 -     -     Pass  Pass
 Pass  1NT   Pass  2♣
 Pass  2♥    Pass  3♦!
 Pass  3NT   Pass  Pass
 Pass  

Thanks for the replies, here is the full hand.
Looks like there is no way under sayc to discover the ♠ shortage. 
3nt went down

jillybean

Guess Partner miscounted his points and opened 1NT with only 14 now IF he doesn't open 1NT you NEVER get to 3NT

[jillybean]

Flame, on Dec 19 2004, 02:39 PM, said:

btw doesnt 1nt show 15-17 ?

yes, it was a Kiwi light

I play a lot with pickup partners so these hands are difficult, I will try out some of the suggestions with my reg partners - thanks!.

[Fluffy]

Cascade, on Dec 20 2004, 01:09 AM, said:

Fluffy, on Dec 20 2004, 12:41 PM, said:

You found a hole in your system, the main problem is opener will bid 4♠ when he has 4-4 in the majors, here you got another problem when he thinks you should stop your 4 card suit.

Which bid promised four spades?

2♣ promises a 4 card major, when no 4♥ appear..

ok, you mean you have to bid 2♠ after 2♥?, I dunno, my stayman goes another way, not sure that is standard, and still... won´t you bid your 5♦ suit?.

[Cascade]

Fluffy, on Dec 21 2004, 07:34 AM, said:

Cascade, on Dec 20 2004, 01:09 AM, said:

Fluffy, on Dec 20 2004, 12:41 PM, said:

You found a hole in your system, the main problem is opener will bid 4♠ when he has 4-4 in the majors, here you got another problem when he thinks you should stop your 4 card suit.

Which bid promised four spades?

2♣ promises a 4 card major, when no 4♥ appear..

ok, you mean you have to bid 2♠ after 2♥?, I dunno, my stayman goes another way, not sure that is standard, and still... won´t you bid your 5♦ suit?.

Maybe that is true in your partnership but it is not in SAYC.

The sequences:

1NT 2♣
Any 3♣

and

1NT 2♣
Any 3♦

are slam tries (or at least forcing) in a minor and do not promise a four-card major.

I am sure that there is plenty of room to improve on particular SAYC sequences. And many do tinker with it. However that structure is well defined and documented as follows (after a 1NT opening):

2♣ Stayman but does not guarantee a major in a strong minor hand

2♦/♥ Jacoby Transfers

2♠ Weak with a long minor

2NT Invitational to 3NT

3♣/♦ Invitational with a six-card minor

3♥/♠ Slammish with a six-card major

3NT to play

4♣ Gerber

4♥/♠ to play

4NT Quantitative

5♣/♦ to play

[pclayton]

Another relatively simple way to avoid the 3N trap is to play 3♥ / 3♠ as shortage with both minors. It is not a slam try, but could be if responder Q's.

[han]

As the auction 1NT-2S-something-3H/S seems free in sayc, I would use that. That way you don't have to change the meaning of any auction.

[jillybean]

this can be deleted

[Cascade]

Hannie, on Dec 21 2004, 12:54 PM, said:

As the auction 1NT-2S-something-3H/S seems free in sayc, I would use that. That way you don't have to change the meaning of any auction.

In a slightly different structure I frequently play 3♥/♠ after a minor suit takeout becomes slammish with clubs or diamonds respectively.

I have recently modified this and started experimenting with 3♥/♠ showing a shortage with an undisclosed long minor.

For other reasons we use 2NT as the takeout to a minor but you could easily graft this on to SAYC:

1NT 2NT - (use 2♠ in SAYC)
3♣ 3♥ slammish with a minor
3♠ slammish with a minor