[sceptic]

Scoring: IMP

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West North East South

 -     1♥    Pass  

SOUTH opened 1 heart NOT North

after 25 minutes of discussion and various different routes in the partnership bidding room me and my p (playing SAYC) could not agree the best way forward with this hand, neither of us thinks the others way is right or wrong, we just can't seem to see how to bid this hand correctly in SAYC.

so I would appreciate some feedback from both beginners and intermediates and experts alike

[sceptic]

Scoring: IMP

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West North East South

 -     1♥    Pass  

[sceptic]

sorry I hope the two hands are a little clearer now

[HeartA]

South has 12 cards only.

S W N E
1♥ - 1♠ -
2♣ - 2♦ -
2♠ - 3♣ -
3♠ - 4NT -
5♦ - 6♣ -
- -.

2♦ by north is "4th suit forcing to game", and 3♣ confirms ♣ as trump. North, after South's 2♠, knows South is short in ♦. After 3♣, South doesn't have a good bid, not willing to go beyond 3NT, 3♠ seems the best, which North loves to hear (No ♥A was good for North). North now can use RKC (not 100% clear for South which black suit is trump, though ♣ is more likely). After 5♦ (assuming 03-14), North bid slam.

[inquiry]

sceptic, on Dec 28 2004, 04:36 PM, said:

Scoring: IMP

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West North East South

 -     1♥    Pass  

south only has 12 cards

[Free]

South has 12 cards, East has 27

[the hog]

Why did East pass with 27 cards including 10 diamonds? Surely there must have been a fit in one of his suits with partner - playable in 4 suits, Wow!!

[sceptic]

sigh, I will learn one day ok the missing card is in south and it is the 7!C, I also thought easts pass was strange, but I think east was cheating

[EricK]

I think a response of 1♠ is mistaken on the North hand and he should bid 2♣ (and I am not just saying that because I have seen South's ♣ suit!)

If the bidding starts 1♥ 1♠ 2♥, North no longer has a sensible bid. He is too strong to sign off in 3NT or 4♥, so he is practically forced to bid 3♣ in order to force. Now if partner bids 3NT you are again stuck! Should you leave it or take out to 4♥? And I don't think bidding is any easier if partner gives preference to 3♠ or makes a probe with 3♦.

Also if opener might raise a major on 3 cards, you are in a tricky situation after 1♥ 1♠ 2♠. Unless you play quite sophisticated methods it is very hard to determine the correct contract (3NT, 4♠, even 6♣ if partner has a perfect 3514).

These problems disappear if you respond 2♣.

Firstly, if partner rebids 2♥, you can force at the 2 level with 2♠. Now partner's possible NT rebid is at the 2 level and you have room to explore if you want.

Secondly, opener will only raise 2♣ to 3♣ with a 4 card suit (and, playing SAYC, with extras). Now you have an easy route to look for a ♣ slam.

Thirdly, ♣ is a much better suit than ♠, and you shouldn't bid bad suits on good hands if you can help it. Here for instance, a singleton ♠ for opener is better than a singleton ♣, but how is he meant to diagnose that if you bid ♠ and not ♣?

Eric

[HeartA]

sceptic, on Dec 29 2004, 01:30 AM, said:

sigh, I will learn one day ok the missing card is in south and it is the 7!C, I also thought easts pass was strange, but I think east was cheating

OK, with 5th ♣ to South, the bidding was different (I was assuming South with 3=5=1=4):

S W N E
1♥ - 1♠ -
2♣ - 2♦ -
2♠ - 3♣ -
4♦ - 4N -
5♦ - 6♣

[badderzboy]

♠A643
♥ Q3
♦ A95
♣ AQ83

♠ KQ5
♥ KJ642
♦
♣ KT976

1♥ - 1♠(1)
2♣(2) - 2♦(3)
3♣(4) - 3♦(5)
3♠(6) - 4NT (7)
5♦(8) - 6♣(9)

(1) I believe you must bid spades first here yes if partner bids 2♥ he denies 4 cards in a minor and therefore must have 6 ♥ so 4♥ is a potential bid...
(2) Now shows 5-4 at least with 11-14 HCPs.
(3) Fourth Suit forcing
(4) 5-5 or better now..
(5) Fourth suit again / stopper asking ! tell me more do u have a stop etc.
(6) 2/3 spades delayed support so 3-5-0-5 or 2-5-1-5 dist'n? ♦!
(7) RKCB ask in spades I know where A♦ is...
(8) 1 KC
(9) 6 C is the limit so thank you v.much?

I'd be likely to bid this in ACOL or SAYC the same way, being a BIL'lie not sure about 3♦ here but that's what I would intend with the bid

[Free]

Nice auction Badzerboy, but why don't you show your 3 card ♠ immediatly over 4th suit forcing? Is the 5 card ♣ really more important than your possible ♠ fit?

[badderzboy]

Fair point Free but my thinking is that 3♣ gives us more bidding space and describes the 5-5 nature of the hand and I can finish describing my hand in the next bid?

If partner bids 3♥ I can bid 3 ♠ to show 3♠'s and 3-5-0-5 shape or 4♦ showing 1st round control and 3 ♠'s if he bids 3♠ showing 3-5-0-5?

From a BIL'lie viewpoint I'm interested in expert opinion and what the responses should mean after FSF on these hands?