[WesleyC]

IMPs, Nil Vul

You are playing Weak NT, 5c majors in a pickup partnership.

You deal holding:

K6 6 KT53 AKQJ43

1C (P) 1D (2H)
3H (P) 3NT (P)
???

Your choice?

Thanks in advance,

WesleyC

[ahydra]

I think I already showed my hand.

ahydra

[chasetb]

Agree with ahydra, I pass as well.

[aguahombre]

I don't agree that you showed your hand, but I do agree that you got the answer to the question 3H elicited. You have to live with that, and pass, trusting that Pard would not have woodenly bid 3NT with the extra strength/shape which would produce slam.

However, I might be coming from a different world where the nature of the 1D response and the existance of good/bad would allow 3D (instead of 3H) to have been forcing.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

I think I'd rather show my hand with a 4H! jump-cue splinter for ♦ .

Partner has responded 1D for a reason. He either is GF w/ or w/o a 4 card Major or he has less than opening values w/o a 4 card Major but has at least 4 cards ♦ .

[aguahombre]

 TWO4BRIDGE, on 2013-April-11, 10:52, said:

I think I'd rather show my hand with a 4H! jump-cue splinter for ♦ .

Partner has responded 1D for a reason. He either is GF w/ or w/o a 4 card Major or he has less than opening values w/o a 4 card Major but has at least 4 cards ♦ .

Or, he is 3-3-3-4 with less than the 8-10 he thinks he should have for a 1NT response, and opener could easily be balanced with only 3 clubs. I don't think I would want to shoot past 3NT just yet with the OP hand.

[mike777]

pass....tough one

pard could have basically nothing for 1d at this vul over 1club.
3nt tells me she has something and a h stopper.



5d may make where 3nt is down.


xxx..ATx..xxxxxx...x


two suited hands in the range of roughly 14-16 can be tough.

btw agree with Aqua prefer 3d here if playing good/bad.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

 mike777, on 2013-April-11, 13:24, said:

btw agree with Aqua [ Agua.. ] prefer 3d here if playing good/bad.

I forgot about the (2NT! ) good/bad in competition to make 3D forcing by Opener .

[wank]

3nt is hardly ever making when 5d is off.

even if partner has a double heart stop, they can attack spades and you won't have 9 to go.

anyway, if it was me, i wouldn't think i had shown diamonds. if it was me i could have a GF club single suiter requiring a heart stop. so i'd bid 4D now to show a strong diamond raise.

[gszes]

This is not the right shape to bid 3h with the intention of playing 3n. There are
far too many hands where p has a heart stop where 5c/d or 6c/d is a vastly
superior contract. IMO we would have been much better served if we had started
with (a very descriptive bid since we did not bid 2s)

x

It is necessary to save an immediate 3d call for a weakish but competitive hand like
x xx Axxx AQJxxx. The x not only keeps the bidding low it allows for a great deal
of flexibility in most future auctions and it makes it far easier for p to show minimum
or extra values (very important for slam bidding).

You endplayed yourself in the bidding and it is now difficult to run from 3n since it may
well be the last playable spot. With really good hands try to keep the bidding as low
and flexible as possible.

[Codo]

I have shown a hand but unluckily not yet mine, so I would move. If partner bids 1 diamond with 3334 and say 5-6 HCPS, I may regret it, but my partner don't to that.

[MrAce]

Whoever believes that they showed their hand needs to reconsider what they are talking about imo. (unless OP mentioned some arificial 2NT relays by opener that would make direct 3♣ forcing)

I am defintely bidding 4♦. Wank made a very good point. It is hard to construct too many hands where 3NT is cold and 5♦ is off.

And if you are playing a method which has some restrictions on 1♦ response (such as walsh or other methods) then it is % 100 clear move over 3NT. Because you will often find pd with 5+ diamonds for 1♦ response. (or he would either start with 1M or 1NT most of the time)

We don't even need to worry about the keycards, even if we are not playing kickback, after 4♦ our next move is to simply bid game, pd will always raise to slam with 2KC+♦Q after this auction. Perhaps he will raise with only 2KC also, if he does so, it won't be my worst slam ever

[keylime]

4♦ for me, and I think it's standout.

Besides the comments above about 3NT vs. 5 of a minor, it's the fact that I'm interested in six.

3♥ isn't a bad call because you want to try game on the construction. Does the p'ship play GB2NT (saw that it was a pickup p'ship)?

[WesleyC]

Despite your objections, I think that 3H is an excellent practical bid, and that once you take that route, passing 3NT is 100% clear.

Although 3H understates your diamond support, it does accurately convey your playing strength (or even slightly exaggerates it). For me a typical 3H bid might look something like [Kx xx Kx AKQTxxx] or [Ax x Qxx AKQTxxx]. For slam to be good partner needs 2 Aces plus extras and on a vast majority of those hands they will be making a forward going move over 3H even though it doesn't show diamond support. I would certainly move past 3NT holding a hand like [Qxx Axx AQxxx xx] or [QJx ATx Axxxxx x].

Finally regarding the safest game, I'm not convinced the 5D is going to be as easy as you all make out. Why can't partner just have a soft hand with a double heart stop like: [Jxx KQT QJxxx xx] or a minimum hand like [Jxx QJx Axxxx xx]. I can see a lot of hands where 9 tricks are easy but 11 is a big stretch, but it's very difficult to go the other way.

At the table, the 3NT call was made after a long hesitation. The player holding the problem hand did bid 4D (claiming that his plan was always to move) and they reached a cold 6D slam. However, the director ruled that the slow 3NT bid suggested bidding on, and adjusted the score back to 3NT+2. I think the entirety of your opinions tend to suggest that passing is a logical alternative so the ruling was correct.

WesleyC

ps. His partner had bid 3NT on a 17 count so you shouldn't read anything into the fact that 6m happened to make on this layout.

[Zelandakh]

 WesleyC, on 2013-April-12, 03:00, said:

Despite your objections, I think that 3H is an excellent practical bid, and that once you take that route, passing 3NT is 100% clear.

Thank you for your lesson, although it would be nice if you put in the OP that you were not looking from input from others.

 WesleyC, on 2013-April-12, 03:00, said:

I think the entirety of your opinions tend to suggest that passing is a logical alternative so the ruling was correct.

This depends entirely on which of the posters are peers of the player in question and whether they have any additional relevant agreements that we have not been made aware of. As an example, some posters have already mentioned good/bad 2NT. However, we have no reason to think that the TD's decision was faulty in any way. As an aside, there is a set of forums towards the bottom of the front page dedicated specifically to laws, rulings and the like.

[MrAce]

 WesleyC, on 2013-April-12, 03:00, said:

Despite your objections..............

Finally regarding the safest game, I'm not convinced the 5D is going to be as easy as you all make out. Why can't partner just have a soft hand with a double heart stop like: [Jxx KQT QJxxx xx] or a minimum hand like [Jxx QJx Axxxx xx]. I can see a lot of hands where 9 tricks are easy but 11 is a big stretch, but it's very difficult to go the other way.

Wank said it is hard to make 3NT when 5♦ is off.

You said that you are not convinced. And that we should pass 3NT in case pd has some type of hands that 3NT makes and 5♦ does not.

Then you tried to support your view with 2 example hands pd may hold. Unfortunately even the hands picked by you are likely to suffer in 3NT after a spade lead, which is far from being a double dummy lead in this auction. ( there are other ways too but ♠ lead and ♥ shift is the likely defense)

Perhaps at the table you should not play your pd for the hands that you are having hard time to construct even in the forums ?

I mean i can come up with hands that are ice cold in 3NT and has no hope in 5♦. We never said there is no such a hand. But i also can come up with at least 5 more hands that are opposite. Because there are a lot to be said about your perfect 3♥ hands and about when pd should or should not bid 3NT. But i am too tired to get into this at 6.30 am.

[WesleyC]

 Zelandakh, on 2013-April-12, 05:06, said:

Thank you for your lesson, although it would be nice if you put in the OP that you were not looking from input from others.

This depends entirely on which of the posters are peers of the player in question and whether they have any additional relevant agreements that we have not been made aware of. As an example, some posters have already mentioned good/bad 2NT. However, we have no reason to think that the TD's decision was faulty in any way. As an aside, there is a set of forums towards the bottom of the front page dedicated specifically to laws, rulings and the like.

I wasn't offering a lesson, just my opinion (which happens to be strong on this hand). I apologize if my response came across as condescending.

Although I don't have much experience playing ACOL, I think openers 2NT rebid in this sequence is used to show 15-17 Balanced so that would rule out good/bad 2NT.

[aguahombre]

 WesleyC, on 2013-April-12, 09:02, said:

Although I don't have much experience playing ACOL, I think openers 2NT rebid in this sequence is used to show 15-17 Balanced so that would rule out good/bad 2NT.

Double might be a better choice than 2NT to show the big balanced hand. One advantage would be not committing our side to declare; another would be to free up 2N for something useful.

[WesleyC]

 MrAce, on 2013-April-12, 05:25, said:

Wank said it is hard to make 3NT when 5♦ is off.

You said that you are not convinced. And that we should pass 3NT in case pd has some type of hands that 3NT makes and 5♦ does not.

Then you tried to support your view with 2 example hands pd may hold. Unfortunately even the hands picked by you are likely to suffer in 3NT after a spade lead, which is far from being a double dummy lead in this auction. ( there are other ways too but ♠ lead and ♥ shift is the likely defense)

Perhaps at the table you should not play your pd for the hands that you are having hard time to construct even in the forums ?

I mean i can come up with hands that are ice cold in 3NT and has no hope in 5♦. We never said there is no such a hand. But i also can come up with at least 5 more hands that are opposite. Because there are a lot to be said about your perfect 3♥ hands and about when pd should or should not bid 3NT. But i am too tired to get into this at 6.30 am.

Constructing random hands to support my case was never a smart plan... If I was going to try, I should've at least done a better job! The deciding factor for me is that in practice, I think you've got a lot more chance of rolling home in a beatable 3NT than you do of making a 5D contract with 3 top losers.

One final comment is that if I WAS intending to commit to 5D on this hand I would start with a 4H splinter to highlight the 4 card support and heart shortage. For me at least, starting with 3H and then pulling to 4D would imply a different hand shape (typically a strong hand with long clubs and 3c diamond support)

Thanks for taking the time to respond!

[WesleyC]

 aguahombre, on 2013-April-12, 09:11, said:

Double might be a better choice than 2NT to show the big balanced hand. One advantage would be not committing our side to declare; another would be to free up 2N for something useful.

I think that Woolsey also plays this treatment and it seems sound. Personally I'd rather just spare all the hassles and stick with a strong NT!