[mila85]

Scoring: IMP

1d-1h
3d-3h
4h-p

---

We played very bad 4h instead of 3nt...
Where is the mistake?
Would you bid 3nt as south without spade stopper?
Would't you bid 4h with Ax?

[Free]

In my partnership I'd say the 3♦ bid was wrong since it shows a 3 card ♥. If you don't have such an agreement, I would also blame the 3♦ bid, since you already know you have to play NT (unless partner has a 6 card ♥ which he can bid in the next round). 2NT is better imo, but I'd just blast to 3NT.

[Chamaco]

mila85, on Jan 10 2005, 03:43 PM, said:

Scoring: IMP

1d-1h
3d-3h
4h-p

---

We played very bad 4h instead of 3nt...
Where is the mistake?
Would you bid 3nt as south without spade stopper?
Would't you bid 4h with Ax?

As opener I would have bid 3S over responder's 3H bid, showing values in S and basically asking for C stopper.

[pclayton]

This hand is similar to the January MSC problem D last month. You held a 16 or 17 count with a 3163 shape; something like (but not exact, have my mag in the office): AKx, x, AJ7xxx, KQx.

The panel woodenly bid 3♦, not considering pard's problem to get to the likely 3N.

I think 1♠ or 2♣ are sensible solutions to these problems instead of 3♦. Similarly, if 3♦ can be somehow çodified'' in the way of suit quality, outside stops, whatever, that would be a solution too. To characterize 3♦ has a 5 1/2 - 6 loser hand without 4 spades and at least 6♦ just isn't good bridge IMO.

On this hand (and IM NOT suggesting this is the absolute solution), a 1♠ rebid on the fragment leads to a painless 3N, instead of a guessing game.

Unfortunately its standard practice

[inquiry]

pclayton, on Jan 10 2005, 12:41 PM, said:

The panel woodenly bid 3♦, not considering pard's problem to get to the likely 3N.

Phil is right. The 3♦ bid is "standard" and the 3♦ bid is "wrong". Like Free, I use 3♦ to show fair six card suit, and three card support for partners major... this treatment is far from standard, but it prevents accidents like this. With this hand, I revert to 1♠ or 2♣ (both forcing by opener since the natural good 3♦ bid is not available). 3NT will be reached over either of these bids.

[Fluffy]

3♦ bid is standard.
3♥ should be 6 carder, but has a problem bidding anything else.
4♥ is fairly obvious with a very good support, perhaps could try 3♠ as cue showing ♥ fit, 3♥ is unlimited after all.

I suggest that responder bids 3♠ instead of 3♥, far from natural bid, not asking nor sowing anything about the suit, but instead showing you have a strong hand that doesn't know where to play.

[Flame]

I think bidding 3sp instead of 3h is better. also instead of 4h is an option to consider.

[Stephen Tu]

The problem with 3S is will partner think you are showing something in spades and are worried about clubs, or vice versa? Opener is then just guessing.

Standard methods dealing with jump rebids are just not very good, since a lot of space is consumed but you don't know about 3 cd support, or side strength, and not enough room to find out before the critical 3nt level.

I play a gadget with one partner here that deals with this situation quite well, utilizing a semi-artificial 2S rebid by opener (the standard strong jump shift hands instead go through 1S, 1RF), and a 2nt rebid by responder to show 5 hearts. Then by 3D level you know opener has 6+d with this strength and some strength in spades, not clubs, not 3 cd support for partner's known 5 cd hearts. 3nt can be bid with confidence that it is the right spot.

Gadget does not come up very often, but it often works spectacularly well when it does, and you don't give up too much.

[junyi_zhu]

mila85, on Jan 10 2005, 03:43 PM, said:

Scoring: IMP

1d-1h
3d-3h
4h-p

---

We played very bad 4h instead of 3nt...
Where is the mistake?
Would you bid 3nt as south without spade stopper?
Would't you bid 4h with Ax?

You can bid 3S to show value in spades and ask partner to place the contract. If she can't bid 3NT, you'd bid 4H next round.
Another option is to bid 2NT over 1H to show your balanced shape. You should upgrade it to 18 or even 19 because of excellent suit and controls. The only problem is that it can be wrong sided. However, it's never a big issue comparing with showing your overall strength and shape. An earlier distortion of 1S isn't very attractive here because you really don't want to hear 4s from partner, and you don't want to hear partner uses forth suit forcing and then sets up spades as trumps. Also, you can't show your strength and shape by 1S. The basic goal of bidding is to define your hand, not to find the "beautiful" bid available, yes, 1S may allow your partner to declare NT, but it just distorts your spade length and the range of 1S is very wide. Comparing with 1S, 3D is even much better.

[HeartA]

Fluffy, on Jan 10 2005, 12:23 PM, said:

3♦ bid is standard.
3♥ should be 6 carder, but has a problem bidding anything else.
4♥ is fairly obvious with a very good support, perhaps could try 3♠ as cue showing ♥ fit,  3♥ is unlimited after all.

I suggest that responder bids 3♠ instead of 3♥, far from natural bid, not asking nor sowing anything about the suit, but instead showing you have a strong hand that doesn't know where to play.

That's what I was going to say. I know 3S could be misleading, but that's my choice.

Without special agreements, 1S rebid by North could be misleading, too. What if South has 4-card S (4-4 or 4-5 majors)? And 3D guarantees 3-card support for pd's major? It doesn't sound right to me. I even don't want to add this treatment with a regular partner.

[flytoox]

Chamaco, on Jan 10 2005, 04:39 PM, said:

[As opener I would have bid 3S over responder's 3H bid, showing values in S and basically asking for C stopper.

I think this is the only answer playing standard and natural system. Any other bids wll cause problem this time or next time.

[the hog]

There is nothing wrong with 3D at all. What are the alternatives? I hate 1S and 2S; 3NT is a poor bid as it is a total bash, 3H overstates the length and strength of the H suit.

There are numerous gadgets you can play to alleviate such situations - some have already been alluded to. Another is to play 3S over 3D as an artificial relay - after all the 3D bidder has denied a 4 card S holding. Lacking these in my armoury I would bid 3NT with the Sth hand over 3D.

[EricK]

The_Hog, on Jan 11 2005, 12:02 AM, said:

There is nothing wrong with 3D at all. What are the alternatives? I hate 1S and 2S; 3NT is a poor bid as it is a total bash, 3H overstates the length and strength of the H suit.

There is 2NT which is what you'd bid with a diamond fewer and a heart or club more. It also has the advantage of heading for the likeliest game (although admittedly it heads away from the likeliest slam).

Eric

[the hog]

I can live with 2NT, but the Polish Strefa guys use this as a GF

[helene_t]

I would bid 2NT and that is GF unless you play Wolf. The hand is strong enough. I like Chamaco's solution too, though.

[Chamaco]

Stephen Tu, on Jan 10 2005, 06:22 PM, said:

I play a gadget with one partner here that deals with this situation quite well, utilizing a semi-artificial 2S rebid by opener (the standard strong jump shift hands instead go through 1S, 1RF),

After a Minor suit opening, Italian Juniors are taught to use what they call "Multi-reverse", e.g. first suit above suit rebid shows a GENERIC REVERSE, can be any shape (even the balanced hand), then responder gets to know more of opener's hand after a relay.
All hcp-power hands go via the Multireverse.

This works fairly well, and frees the use of the 2NT and 3 level jump-bids for more distributional hands.

[mila85]

Thanks all. But I still have some questions.

I don't like 2c on small doubleton and I don't want to lie in major.
Both these bids are solution of this problem but without agreement can be disasterous.
1d-1h
1s-4s (12hcp 4 spades)

1d-1h
2c-3c (weak hand, 4h 4+c)
3d is forcing now
And it's not so easy to anticipate partner's problem and use one of these bids.

2nt in my system shows 19-20 balanced. It's almost GF (passable only when responded with 4- hcp because of short diamonds). Then you can bid 3nt immidietly.

When 3d shows 3 heards what do you bid without them?
And what do you bid over 3d with xx KJxx Qx QT9xx?

1d-1h
3d-3s Is third suit (not fourth) so it's seminatural, shows some values in spades.

1d-1h
3d-3h
3s can be good. But don't you want to play 3nt from your hand?

2s as multi reverse sounds interesting. I play it now as splinter.
Do you think it's better than standard bidding in any other cases than this one? How does it work? I think splinter is very useful here so it should have more than one advantage if I have to play (and learn) it.

[Chamaco]

mila85, on Jan 11 2005, 12:04 PM, said:

2s as multi reverse sounds interesting. I play it now as splinter.
Do you think it's better than standard bidding in any other cases than this one? How does it work? I think splinter is very useful here so it should have more than one advantage if I have to play (and learn) it.

You might use 2NT as concealed splinter, since the 18-19 bal would be lumped into 2S.

Then your pard could decide or not to ask your singleton with a 3C relay, if interested in slam: in case you do not go to slam, the concealed splinter will not give away too much info to the opening leader.

[shanbari]

Chamaco, on Jan 11 2005, 03:56 AM, said:

Stephen Tu, on Jan 10 2005, 06:22 PM, said:

I play a gadget with one partner here that deals with this situation quite well, utilizing a semi-artificial 2S rebid by opener (the standard strong jump shift hands instead go through 1S, 1RF),

After a Minor suit opening, Italian Juniors are taught to use what they call "Multi-reverse", e.g. first suit above suit rebid shows a GENERIC REVERSE, can be any shape (even the balanced hand), then responder gets to know more of opener's hand after a relay.
All hcp-power hands go via the Multireverse.

This works fairly well, and frees the use of the 2NT and 3 level jump-bids for more distributional hands.

interesting, any moer detail of how opener to continue ?
thanks

shan

[Stephen Tu]

Quote

2nt in my system shows 19-20 balanced. ...
When 3d shows 3 heards what do you bid without them?

If 2nt is natural, and you aren't playing any other special gadgetry, then you just have to consign yourself to some guesswork after 1d-1h-3d, and accept that you will guess wrong some times. For the people whose jump rebid shows 3 cd support, usually they have constructed their NT ladder so that they can use 2nt for the ones without, or perhaps some other bid. Often it is in strong/variable club system so 18-19/20 hands not an issue.

Quote

2s as multi reverse sounds interesting. I play it now as splinter.
Do you think it's better than standard bidding in any other cases than this one? How does it work?

I will let Mauro(Chamaco) describe the multi-reverse Italian methods as I am ignorant of those.

The gadget I play is based on Kaplan-Sheinwold minor suit rebids. This rearranges some of the standard rebids, to gain bidding room & flexibility on stronger hands. Minimum hands with both minors 5-5 open 1d, rebid 3c. Minimum hands 5-4 in the minors open a weak NT (or I suppose rebid 1nt in a strong NT system), raise partner's major, or rebid a minor; sometimes you lose the other minor which can cost but not too often since the opponents would often be bidding the other major. (I abandon the gadget in competition). 1d, rebid 3d is now a GF one-suiter, you would have opened 2c if it was a major. That frees 2c/2s to handle other hand types. 2c is semi-artificial, 1RF, like a reverse, including strong minor 2 suiters, strong hands with long diamonds & club strength, & heart raises with a spade splinter. The 2S gadget is an extension along the same lines, developed by Bo-Yin Yang. Following is his description:

"the professor's jumpshift"

1D-1H; 2S=
a) a "standard" 3D rebid, with a spade stop but no
club stop, and six (presumably goodish) diamonds
b) FRAGMENT RAISE: short clubs and a raise to 3H+
c) 3-card support, long diamonds and a spade, but not
club, fragment.

Responder relays with 2N with 5+ hearts (unless 6 good hearts
and a game force is held), bid 3D to signoff opposite a minimum (a) or
c) type hand, and 3C as an artificial force to game without 5 hearts.
Over 2N, opener clarifies by bidding 3D with (a), 3C (MIN) and 3S/N
(MAX) with c), and 3H or 4C+ with (b).

I think this set of rebids is far superior to standard bidding, you get a lot more information passed before you even reach 3 level.