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The Problem with Religious Moderation From Sam Harris

#981 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2014-October-27, 12:15

View Postgwnn, on 2014-October-27, 08:07, said:

Even I would agree that the Bible is connected to God "in some way."


Yes, for example it contains the name of God (in one or another form) many times.
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#982 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2014-October-27, 12:28

View PostWinstonm, on 2014-October-27, 08:53, said:

Here is a link to Gallup poll.
Thank you Winstonm, an eye-opener!
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#983 User is offline   kenberg 

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Posted 2014-October-27, 12:56

View Posthelene_t, on 2014-October-27, 08:29, said:

I know lots of people who "believe" in astrology for conversation purposes but never base any decisions on it. Probably the same with most people who believe in god(s).


This absolutely matches my experience growing up. If anyone ever asked my father whether he believed in God I am sure he would have said yes. My mother probably would have given a more direct indication of what she thought of the question. Neither would have prolonged any such conversation for a moment longer than necessary. I cannot recall any time in family history when religion was brought to bear on any matter except my mother thought services were too early on Sunday morning. "Too early" meant something like 10.

This was a very working class neighborhood, no doubt everyone on the block knew the answer to the quiz question "Do you believe in God" but I cannot recall much of any discussion involving God. Mae H and my mother would sit in the kitchen for hours, drinking much beer and discussing many things. God did not come up in any conversation, as near as I can recall. Mae was a "good Catholic", my mother a "good Presbyterian", everyone was happy to leave it at that.

And yes, my mother read her astrological forecast every day in the paper. I can't recall any time she made any decision based on it. She read the comics also, especially a cartoon entitled "Why Mothers get gray". She didn't act on that either.
Ken
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#984 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2014-October-27, 17:03

View Postnige1, on 2014-October-26, 10:41, said:

Is this poll representative of American opinion? Do subsequent polls confirm its findings?

I very much doubt it.

I look at the wonder that is our universe, and I think "can this have arisen other than from the hand of some sentient being?" On the other hand, I find the assertion that some particular book, shown over the years to have been written by several different people in different eras, is literally the "word of God" (this applies to several different books, not just the Bible) to be absurd on its face. And science has begun to show that yes, it's possible that the wonder arose without a sentient hand behind it. As for a "personal" God, I'm not even sure what that means — but I do wonder why an omnipotent, omniscient being would care much about one single planet in an obscure corner of the universe. Surely He has other fish to fry.
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#985 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2014-October-27, 17:56

View Postblackshoe, on 2014-October-27, 17:03, said:

but I do wonder why an omnipotent, omniscient being would care much about one single planet in an obscure corner of the universe. Surely He has other fish to fry.


And be so concerned about the hair/dress/diet of the inhabitants thereon. I do not understand why anyone would worship a god who cares about such trivia.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
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#986 User is offline   Trinidad 

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Posted 2014-October-28, 02:42

View PostVampyr, on 2014-October-27, 17:56, said:

And be so concerned about the hair/dress/diet of the inhabitants thereon. I do not understand why anyone would worship a god who cares about such trivia.

That doesn't bother me at all.

If an Entity can be omnipotent, I would expect It to be omniconcerned.

Rik
I want my opponents to leave my table with a smile on their face and without matchpoints on their score card - in that order.
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#987 User is offline   billw55 

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Posted 2014-October-28, 09:23

View Postblackshoe, on 2014-October-27, 17:03, said:

As for a "personal" God, I'm not even sure what that means

I suspect it means more about the follower than it does about the God.
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#988 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2014-October-28, 09:37

View PostTrinidad, on 2014-October-28, 02:42, said:

That doesn't bother me at all.

If an Entity can be omnipotent, I would expect It to be omniconcerned.

Rik


If so, then I would expect an equal concern for all life forms; singling out human life as more worthy of concern indicates a human idea.
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter. / "I need ammunition, not a ride." Zelensky
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#989 User is offline   billw55 

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Posted 2014-October-28, 10:05

View Posthelene_t, on 2014-October-27, 08:29, said:

I know lots of people who "believe" in astrology for conversation purposes but never base any decisions on it. Probably the same with most people who believe in god(s).

Point taken, although I think that "most" is an overbid.
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#990 User is offline   Trinidad 

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Posted 2014-October-28, 11:37

View PostWinstonm, on 2014-October-28, 09:37, said:

If so, then I would expect an equal concern for all life forms; singling out human life as more worthy of concern indicates a human idea.

Absolutely! That's why gold fish don't eat porc.

Rik
I want my opponents to leave my table with a smile on their face and without matchpoints on their score card - in that order.
The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds the new discoveries, is not “Eureka!” (I found it!), but “That’s funny…” – Isaac Asimov
The only reason God did not put "Thou shalt mind thine own business" in the Ten Commandments was that He thought that it was too obvious to need stating. - Kenberg
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#991 User is offline   ArtK78 

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Posted 2014-October-28, 12:28

View PostVampyr, on 2014-October-27, 17:56, said:

And be so concerned about the hair/dress/diet of the inhabitants thereon. I do not understand why anyone would worship a god who cares about such trivia.

Don't forget about rooting for specific sports teams. After all, whenever athletes win, they thank God. I wonder what God had against the losers?
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#992 User is offline   Fluffy 

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Posted 2014-October-28, 16:15

people praying for their team to win is one of my pet peeves for the same reason.
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#993 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2014-October-28, 20:34

View PostFluffy, on 2014-October-28, 16:15, said:

people praying for their team to win is one of my pet peeves for the same reason.
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#994 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2014-October-29, 10:37

I don't understand it. Sunday, god loved the Giants and hated the Royals. Yesterday, god loved the Royals and hated the Giants. What could the Giants have done to earn god's wrath, and what could the Royals have done to earn god's love?
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter. / "I need ammunition, not a ride." Zelensky
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#995 User is offline   Trinidad 

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Posted 2014-October-29, 12:10

View PostWinstonm, on 2014-October-29, 10:37, said:

I don't understand it. Sunday, god loved the Giants and hated the Royals. Yesterday, god loved the Royals and hated the Giants. What could the Giants have done to earn god's wrath, and what could the Royals have done to earn god's love?

I think God loves baseball and wants to watch game 7...

Rik
I want my opponents to leave my table with a smile on their face and without matchpoints on their score card - in that order.
The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds the new discoveries, is not “Eureka!” (I found it!), but “That’s funny…” – Isaac Asimov
The only reason God did not put "Thou shalt mind thine own business" in the Ten Commandments was that He thought that it was too obvious to need stating. - Kenberg
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#996 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2014-October-29, 12:42

View PostFluffy, on 2014-October-28, 16:15, said:

people praying for their team to win is one of my pet peeves for the same reason.


Why do you care?
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
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#997 User is offline   kenberg 

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Posted 2014-October-29, 13:50

View PostVampyr, on 2014-October-29, 12:42, said:

Why do you care?


We have an opportunity here. I ask "Why do you care why he cares?". Then Winston asks me "Why do you care why she cares why he cares?" Then ...

From The Bachelor and the Bobby-Soxer:

You remind me of a man
What man?
The man with the power.
What power?
Hoo-doo.
Hoo-doo?
You do.
I do what?
You remind me of a man.
What man?
The man with the power.
What power?
Ken
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#998 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2014-October-29, 17:21

Circular reasoning - my specialty! :rolleyes:
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter. / "I need ammunition, not a ride." Zelensky
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#999 User is offline   Fluffy 

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Posted 2014-October-30, 06:18

View PostVampyr, on 2014-October-29, 12:42, said:

Why do you care?


Because I am aware that if I did that I would be askng for god to fill me with joy at the expense of others, which its one of the most selfish things I can think of. And it hurts me to see other people not realicing it. Or maybe I am scared that god listens to them which would make god very different from what I think of.
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#1000 User is offline   kenberg 

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Posted 2014-October-30, 06:48

There is, for me, a serious side to this praying to God for success of a team. I don't regard sports as a critical activity except (possibly) for those directly engaged. But other matters are more important. The phrase "In God We Trust" has the potential to be harmful. Baseball players, soldiers in battle, someone starting a business, someone going though tough personal times, they each might find a faith in God comforting and I have no wish to dissuade them. But they also have to use their brains, skill and judgment. I have heard people say easy slogans such as "If God takes you to it, God wil take you through it". I find such things monumentally unhelpful, and that is not just the unbeliever in me speaking.

"It's a hard way to find out, that trouble is real". So says the old song and I agree. I have no objection at all to people bringing their faith to bear on troubles. Some sort of trust that it might, with effort, get better can be essential. But the idea of praying to God for victory for a team of professional baseball players strikes me as at least odd. I should expect God to say something like "Come back when you have a serious request".
Ken
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