[Scarabin]

Regard this as experimental since,by definition, it should not attract any replies! And yet,bridge itself is esoteric.

Anyhow my particular interest is the minutiae of history: the forgotten footnotes that don't appear in mainstream histories. If it were not fiction, Dashiell Hammett's description of the provenance of the maltese falcon would be the perfect example.

Here's another which is true, if little known, history. In February 1682, Thomas Thynne was shot dead in the Haymarket,London, while "taking the air in his coach". Jon Karl von Konigsmark and three followers were apprehended and tried. The three followers were steadfast in admitting to and shouldering the blame for the murder,maintaining that Konigsmark knew nothing about it. They were hanged (in the haymarket as the scene of the crime) and Konigsmark was acquitted.

It seems that the quartet arrived in England intent on murder about 3 weeks before and tried to leave the country immediately after the murder. There is a transcript of the trial in State Trials, Antonia Fraser gives a factual account in "The weaker vessel", A.E.W. Mason gave a fictionalised account in "Konigsmark",Allan Marshall refers to it briefly in "Intelligence & espionage in the reign of Charles II", and I saw a TV documentary on the lines of "you be the judge" which featured it.

There are 2 schools of thought: either it was a political assassination and the Duke of Monmouth may have been the target,he was in Thynne's coach earlier, or it was a struggle over an heiress, Lady Elizabeth Percy. Jon Karl fancied her, he was not the sort of man to actually be in love, and Thynne bribed her impecunious guardian into allowing him(Thynne) to marry Lady Elizabeth. She fled his house immediately after the wedding.

Whatever the truth may be there is general agreement the trial had a political element and the judge steered the jury toward acquitting Konigsmark.

[mike777]

so:

1) we don't give a damn about the facts of the case
2) we dont't give a damn about the law, written law.



The jury decides the facts of law...you may disagree.



what is your question?

[Scarabin]

My only question is whether there are any other posters who share my interest in the scuttlebutt of history: ie the sort of history that is not covered in the schoolbooks?

To continue, Jon Karl had a brother,Philip Cristophe Konigsmark, who was the lover of King George 1's wife, Sophia Dorothea, before George became king of Britain, and who was murdered, probably on George's orders. He also had a sister,Aurora, mother of France's Marshal Saxe.

Ah well, perhaps the detritus of history is the most interesting bit!

[kenberg]

Am I interested in esoterica? (Thanks to Art for correcting me here, I had said exotica. At least I didn't say erotica!). I suppose that the answer is yes and no. Let me tell you of my thinking on reading above about George I. Something like this. Let's see. Before the current Elizabeth there was a George. Which George? Maybe VI, but I had to look it up. So there was, must have been, a George I somewhere in there. And now there is Baby George although until a few days ago I had not made a note of the child's name. And then there is Boy George, but that's probably unrelated. My knowledge base is not large.

I am currently reading a novel called The Birth of Venus (Sarah Dunant). I haven't gotten that far but it is set in Renaissance Florence and, so it is claimed, is carefully researched. Maybe I'll learn something, maybe it will be true.

Generally I enjoy little out of the way facts, but it helps when they are within a context that I am otherwise thinking about. And if it gets at all difficult, I abandon it pretty quickly. I once went to one of those things where they show you how to research your family tree. I didn't get far. When I came up blank on stuff about my father, some joker suggested that I try the witness protection program. I may follow up on these inquiries some day, but it isn't a priority. By contrast, I have a friend, last name Hamilton, who has gotten into this stuff in a big way and knows all about Alexander Hamilton, Lady Hamilton (aka That Hamilton Woman), etc. It seems that Thomas Berg (Anton Perekovic before he came through Ellis Island) left less of a footprint. No complaints from me about that.

[barmar]

 Scarabin, on 2013-October-31, 21:31, said:

My only question is whether there are any other posters who share my interest in the scuttlebutt of history: ie the sort of history that is not covered in the schoolbooks?

I have barely enough room in my brain for the parts of history that actually matter.

[mikeh]

 barmar, on 2013-November-01, 09:37, said:

I have barely enough room in my brain for the parts of history that actually matter.

I have no idea how you know, either in advance or after having read some history, which parts 'actually matter' or what that phrase means.

I read a great deal of history and think that the history that one learns in schoolbooks is to be very much distrusted.

Schoolbooks are often, even in democracies, politically driven and sometimes religiously driven. They are, in my admittedly limited experience, always parochial.

Even the more interesting books, written not to serve a school curriculum and the agenda of the political masters of the school system, can be 'interesting' in that the authors are usually advancing their own agendas or personal philosophies. Accordingly, when reading about a period in history, it can be useful to read different authors, if only to be aware that there is rarely such a thing as an objective view of history.

I recently read a fascinating (to me, but I'm weird) book on the history of Carthage. It was the second book I have on the subject, and went into far more detail, including with respect to the founding and rise of Carthage, than the other. The author was careful to stress that there are very few surviving records from the Carthaginian side, because the Romans not only did their utmost to destroy Carthage physically but also to eliminate their records.

I also like some historical fiction. An Instance of the Fingerpost by Iain Pears is brilliant, as is Stephenson's monumental Baroque Cycle. Both appear to be meticulously researched and contain all kinds of little nuggets that would appear to be 'true'.

I already knew, for example, that Isaac Newton took an appointment as the Master of the Mint, on behalf of the English Government. What I hadn't understood was just how important that role was, when assumed by him, and the reason why the government needed an intellect of his level to do the job.

Frankly, I think that there is no such thing as knowing too much history, and that one of the main failings in the US political system right now arises from the virtual lack of any real history in their basic educational system. I have discussed this with people who went to high school and university in Michigan and in California, and I assume that these two states are amongst the most progressive, and they told me that it was possible, and common, to graduate from high school without ever studying the history of any nation other than the US!!!!!!

No wonder so many Americans are oblivious to the rest of the world and so convinced that their country (and by reflection, them) is exceptional.

[mycroft]

I am currently listening to "A Short History of Ireland (in 240 parts)".

I have a pretty good knowledge of British history, and a slightly less good knowledge of Canadian History. I also know a fair bit about the Irish-Americans and the history of the Christian Church.

There is much that I thought I knew that I'm learning - different, now. At a somewhat advancing age.

[kenberg]

Following a little on mikeh

A side note i know, but I will also comment on the teaching of History in the U.S..

I was in high school 1952-1956. I time of lots of communists. They were everywhere. The history book of my (I think) sophomore year dealt with our war with Mexico in a fairly open way. That chapter began, as I recall "Every nation has parts of its history of which it is not proud". Well! The teacher announced we would skip that chapter. I read that chapter. Maybe it's a way to get kids to read some history.

My senior level Civics teacher was an independent sort of guy. This was 1955, not so long after WWII. He showed us a propaganda film from the war years. This one focused on Hitler's invasion of Russia and how he had not properly prepared for the bravery of the Russian people Whooey, that guy must've been a Fellow Traveler, as they were called. He also explained that in the 1930s, Hitler had a fair number of supporters in the U.S.. Call HUAC. He gets my vote as a serious teacher.

I took to World Hhistory in my sophomore year in a big way. Except for being force fed Julius Caesar in English, and seeing Peter Ustinov as Nero in Quo Vadis, I knew nothing.

I have to say one more thing about that Civics teacher, Mr. Tighe. The first half year was Civics, the second half was Psychology. For my term paper I chose Paranormal Phenomena. Mr. Tighe suggested I do a paper on Freud. "Who's Freud? " I asked. "Oh, Ken" he said. I did it on Paranormal Phenomena.. My error.

Most of High School was very forgetable, but it had its moments.

Over and out, back to esoterica.

[mikeh]

 kenberg, on 2013-November-01, 14:57, said:

Following a little on mikeh



I took to World Hhistory in my sophomore year in a big way. Except for being force fed Julius Caesar in English, and seeing Peter Ustinov as Nero in Quo Vadis, I knew nothing.

One advantage (?) of a early 1960's Public School education was learning to read Caesar in Latin And Cicero and, I suspect but don't recall, others. I can say that unlike the stereotypical product of such schools, I can't quote a single word from anything I read then.

I also don't mean to sound as critical of Americans as I probably did. As an English schoolboy, I definitely learned a lot of 'world' history, in comparison to what I understand most Americans learn today, but a lot of it....an awful lot of it...was about how the British Empire had gained control of large parts of the rest of the world, and almost as much was on how the valiant English had beaten France in Agincourt and Crecy and similar triumphs, with little explanation of how it was that despite these stunning victories, England soon lost every single part of France that it had formerly ruled.

I think the lesson is that schoolday history is rarely anything other than propaganda aimed at the young, which usually turns out to be a very useful device for instilling obedience to the accepted order of things (which is its main purpose, imo).

[Winstonm]

 barmar, on 2013-November-01, 09:37, said:

I have barely enough room in my brain for the parts of history that actually matter.

You mean there are parts that actually matter? Uh-oh...

[USViking]

Without looking it up I think Konigsmark was the name of the illicit love of the wife of King George I
of England. If I have it right she was imprisoned for life as a result of the affair, and her lover disappeared,
or was killed under suspicious circumstances.

G1's reign as English King began in the 1700s, although he was King of the German state of Hanover
earlier. I wonder if the Queen's lover and the Konigsmark of our OP were the same.

[Scarabin]

 USViking, on 2013-November-01, 18:02, said:

Without looking it up I think Konigsmark was the name of the illicit love of the wife of King George I
of England. If I have it right she was imprisoned for life as a result of the affair, and her lover disappeared,
or was killed under suspicious circumstances.

G1's reign as English King began in the 1700s, although he was King of the German state of Hanover
earlier. I wonder if the Queen's lover and the Konigsmark of our OP were the same.

Correct. Actually her lover was Philip Cristophe Konigsmark. He was Jon Karl's younger brother and was at school in London at the time of Thynne's murder.

What amazes me is that I learned English history without learning that a woman who should have been queen of England spent her life under "house arrest" in Germany!

[y66]

Scarabin beat me to the punch while I was looking it up. These stories are interesting. I haven't read much history. Maybe that will change soon.

[blackshoe]

History is fascinating. So is "alternate history" (a sub-genre of science fiction), at least when it's well done.

[USViking]

 Scarabin, on 2013-November-01, 19:03, said:

Correct. Actually her lover was Philip Cristophe Konigsmark. He was Jon Karl's younger brother and was at school in London at the time of Thynne's murder.

What amazes me is that I learned English history without learning that a woman who should have been queen of England spent her life under "house arrest" in Germany!

Two generations later a sister of George III was shipped off to Denmark to marry their king. The King was literally a drooling mental defective, who cruelly mistreated his wife. She was temporary rescued by the influence of a German court physician named Struensee, who became for some time the King's doctor and the Queen's lover. Together Doctor and Queen became actual rulers of the country, embarking on a series of progressive reforms. Sadly the forces of reaction staged a coup. The doctor was executed and the queen divorced and exiled, dying young in England's German realms.

The writer Norah Lofts wrote a heart-rending novel about the affair titled The Lost Queen.

[Scarabin]

 USViking, on 2013-November-01, 19:50, said:

Two generations later a sister of George III was shipped off to Denmark to marry their king. The King was literally a drooling mental defective, who cruelly mistreated his wife. She was temporary rescued by the influence of a German court physician named Struensee, who became for some time the King's doctor and the Queen's lover. Together Doctor and Queen became actual rulers of the country, embarking on a series of progressive reforms. Sadly the forces of reaction staged a coup. The doctor was executed and the queen divorced and exiled, dying young in England's German realms.

The writer Norah Lofts wrote a heart-rending novel about the affair titled The Lost Queen.

I saw a Danish movie about this with Mads Mikklesen as the doctor. I cannot remember the title.

[Scarabin]

Taking up Mikeh's point I suspect history is even more biased in divided countries like Ireland where I was born. However in Ireland you get to meet the other half and discover they are not hydra-headed monsters. I was born in northern Ireland and educated in the south. The first girl I dated explained to me why she would never introduce me to her father: her great grandfather was the catholic bishop of Armagh and had been hanged on his own front door.

I came across an Irish historian Carty? who detailed all the atrocities that happened there, giving names of the participants.

On the subject of esoterica (or exotica, that's close enough) I wonder if there are any wargamers who still believe in the genius of great commanders. Trying to reproduce great victories surely will convince almost anyone that victories are more likely to be due to better training,tactics,weapons or discipline than to flashes of genius. Of course I am ignoring the value of surprise.

[y66]

I read Oman's biography of Nelson over the course of many winter evenings next to the fireplace a few years ago. That was fun. I consumed a few bottles of wine along the way which added to my enjoyment. I also enjoyed working my way through Patrick O'Brian's Aubrey-Maturin series of novels (historical fiction)

Kenberg's post on the RIP thread about General Vo Nguyen Giap was fascinating.

I saw that Mads Mikkelsen movie. The first 30 minutes or so were quite interesting. Not even Mikkelsen could carry the rest of the script though.

[USViking]

 Scarabin, on 2013-November-01, 22:59, said:

... The first girl I dated explained to me why she would never introduce me to her father: her great grandfather was the catholic bishop of Armagh and had been hanged on his own front door...

Being Irish you should know the historical facts, but I have a problem believing this. Although the English hanged far too many Irish as late as the Easter Rebellion ca. 1916, I wonder if any 19th-20th century Roman Catholic (Arch)bishops were among the victims. I googled it, and the Wiki article on the Archbishopric of Armagh (one of the world's most preeminent, having been established by St. Patrick himself) which names all of the AB of Armagh does not mention any having been hanged in the 50 or so years leading up and including the Easter Rebellion era, as I think it surely would.

Per Wiki AB of Armagh Oliver Plunkett was executed in 1681, but in London. He was canonized in 1975 as the first new Irish saint in 700 years. I imagine his reputation in Ireland is exceeded only by that of St. Patrick and that most if not all Irish who share his last name claim descent from him. That would be despite the proscription against sexual activity by RC clergy, Plunkett seeming to have been the kind of man who would have conformed to all the requirements of his calling.

[PassedOut]

 Scarabin, on 2013-November-01, 22:59, said:

The first girl I dated explained to me why she would never introduce me to her father: her great grandfather was the catholic bishop of Armagh and had been hanged on his own front door.

I remember a couple of girls telling me that also, way back when.