[Oceanss]

Hi
What are the "standard" 3.rd level responses to pard's 1NT opening in non-compet. auctions?
If 1N-3M is short in major, 54 in minors, what is opener supposed to do next?
I don't really understand how Minor Stayman works, would someone be kind to explain it? And what is 2N-3S ? Minor Stayman as well ?
Thanks !

[Stephen Tu]

Oceanss, on 2014-May-15, 10:26, said:

What are the "standard" 3.rd level responses to pard's 1NT opening in non-compet. auctions?

There really is no "standard". Depends on agreements.

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If 1N-3M is short in major, 54 in minors, what is opener supposed to do next?

Depends on the holding in the short major. With good stopper, wasted values, somethiing like KQTx, AQJ, AQx, KJT, expected to bid 3nt of course. With shaky stopper, or Axx type holding which will play well opposite a stiff in a suit contract, bid a minor, or 4 other major with a good suit, suggesting playing a 4-3 fit (or 5-3 if opened 1nt with 5 cds oM).

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I don't really understand how Minor Stayman works, would someone be kind to explain it?

Lots of schemes don't include minor stayman. If you do play it, 2♠ asks for a 4 cd minor, opener bids 2nt without any. After opener bids a minor, responder typically either passes (if 5-5 weak), or bids 3M with a stiff/void. Opener then will bid 3nt with good stop/wasted values opposite stiff as above, or retreat to minor, or cue bid with his best hands. If opener rebids 2nt, responder can still bid 3M with shortness, bids 3♣ with weak hands. Some people play 2♠ as MSS or diamond bust, in which case a 3♦ rebid is weak with long diamonds.

With flatter hand but stronger, responder can follow up by bidding 3NT instead, quantitative invite (with weaker 2254 hands worth game force only, one doesn't bother with MSS).

MSS is bid when responder is weak with 5/5 or better in the minors and wants to sign off in a 3 level partial, with strong 5/5 looking for the best game and possibly slam, and occasionally stronger flatter hands with only 5-4/4-4 in the minors looking for a better slam than 6nt.

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And what is 2N-3S ? Minor Stayman as well ?

It can be, but is less often played than over 1nt. This is partially because people often give up 4♦ for Texas xfer, and 4♣ for Gerber, so you often need this bid to show one suited minor hands as well. A fair number of players play that 3♠ is a puppet to 3nt (opener must always bid 3nt), bidding a minor over that then is a 1 suited slam try (natural, though some people switch the minors so opener can declare), bidding a major is shortness and a 2 suited slam try.

[Zelandakh]

Standard vary according to where you come from and which gadgets you are playing. Where I caome from (England) the traditional meaning of 3 level responses was natural and GF. When playing transfers the suits are 6+ cards and there is slam interest; without transfers the 3M response can be a game-going hand with a 5 card major. In America (I think) the traditional meaning of a 3m response is natural and invitational.

In recent times many play a 3♣ response as a transfer to diamonds. At expert level playing a 3♣ response as Puppet Stayman is very popular, getting close to a Standard amongst American pairs.

That said, my own preference for the 3m response is still the old one-suited slam hand. The reason for this is that I prefer to bid the 2-suited minor-oriented hands via a transfer instead of the more popular one-suited way. The 3M responses I play to show 44(14) hands, which are more awkward for me than (13)(54) due to playing 2♣ as Puppet Stayman.

That last sentence is relevant by the way. The real way to look at 3 level responses is to plug the holes that the rest of the structure has. With NT response structures in particular it is difficult to look at a specific part in isolation without reference to the system as a whole.

Over a 2NT opening (or rebid), while some do use Minor Suit Stayman, it is much more common for this to show one or both minors. The most popular method is arguably that 3♠ puppets to 3NT and then 4m = natural, one-suited; 4M = both minors + void; 4NT = both minors without void. But there are plenty of variations around. Mine for example is to drop the one-suited diamond hand and now 3♠ aways promises clubs, allowing Opener to accept past 3NT. That involves losing the 4♣ response and converting it to being a diamond transfer. Again, the important thing here is that the overall system hangs together.

[kenrexford]

As to "Minor Suit Stayman," you can gain a lot (IMO) by having Opener simply offer minor suit preference, bidding 3♣ with club preference but 2NT with diamond preference. That enables you to bid 2♠ with a weak hand and both minors, with which you play in whatever minor Opener prefers. It also allows you to bid 2♠ with either one-suited minor and weak, because Opener's 2NT for diamond preference gets out of the way of your next bid of 3♣. Had Opener bid 3♦ to prefer diamonds, you would be stuck having to bid 4♣. Also, 2♠ followed by three of a major is typically both minors and shortness, with slam interest and with fewer than three of the other major.

As to 3♥ or 3♠ as 3-1 or 1-3 in the majors and both minors, there has been a lot of debate about the best approach, meaning whether you bid the fragment or bid the shortness. I do not feel strongly about this, but I think that bidding the fragment works better, for one simple reason -- space. If you bid the shortness and bid 3♠ as, say, 1-3-5-4, Opener has only one way to show hearts -- 4♥. If you bid the fragment, however, Opener never has inability to show either major two ways -- bidding for of the major or bidding the other major below game. Thus, 1NT-3♠-4♥ or 1NT-3♥-3♠, either being a stronger way to support Responder's major. I mean, there is a wild difference between deciding to play in four of the major on a Moysian fit with a minimum 1NT opening, as opposed to deciding to play four of the major with a five-card suit (true 8-card fit), a maximum, and no wasted values in the short suit. Consider a 3♠ call as 3-1-5-4, and you as Opener have (a) ♠A J 9 x ♥Q x x ♦K J x ♣K J x (sucks bad) versus (b) ♠A Q 10 9 x ♥x x x ♦A K x ♣K x (wow!).

When using these two, I personally like 3♣ as Puppet Stayman and 3♦ as 5-5 in the majors with invitational or greater values. After the 3♦ casll (5-5, non-forcing but could be slammish), Opener can pick a major with a minimum, jump to game in a major with a maximum, or cuebid 4♣ for hearts, 4♦ for spades with a "super max" hand.

[mycroft]

To give you some idea of how "nonstandard" this is, I tell pickups I'll play whetever they like for 3-level bids; it will never come up anyway.

Pick something with your partner and play it; on the 3 hands a year you bid it it will be an advantage; on the 10 hands a year that failing to bid it gives your partner more information it will be an advantage; on the 3 hands a year some other agreement would be better, you're behind the people that are playing that agreement. Even if it's 5 hands a year - there's hundreds of other things the time can be better spent on improving than your 3-level bids over NT.

[kenrexford]

mycroft, on 2014-May-16, 10:32, said:

To give you some idea of how "nonstandard" this is, I tell pickups I'll play whetever they like for 3-level bids; it will never come up anyway.

Pick something with your partner and play it; on the 3 hands a year you bid it it will be an advantage; on the 10 hands a year that failing to bid it gives your partner more information it will be an advantage; on the 3 hands a year some other agreement would be better, you're behind the people that are playing that agreement. Even if it's 5 hands a year - there's hundreds of other things the time can be better spent on improving than your 3-level bids over NT.

This seems quite strong, IMO. For one, Puppet Stayman comes up a ton if you play it. There are other 3-level calls that have fairly high frequency.

That said, I agree with the sentiment. If you played that all 3-bids were impossible bids, you would do fine.